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Free speech is not just a constitutional amendment, it's a cultural value. It happens when DreamHost protects a website that is organizing legal protests, spend

by Meekro 9y ago

Free speech is not just a constitutional amendment, it's a cultural value. It happens when DreamHost protects a website that is organizing legal protests, spending more per hour on legal fees than the website will pay over its lifetime. It happens when Cloudflare refuses to cancel service to some of the most disgusting sites on the internet, even though they're on the free plan and Cloudflare has no legal obligation to continue to host them. It happens when reddit fights tooth and nail, at great expense and with no reward forthcoming, to maintain some of the most toxic communities on the internet, only agreeing to close them when there is truly no other choice. It happens when computer scientists invent technologies like tor, freenet, and bitcoin, allowing unpopular groups to get their message out and collect donations, even if the majority would prefer that they be banished. And yes, it even happens when a small ISP steps up to host The Daily Stormer, secure in their knowledge that the best way to contend with such filth is to let the sunlight disinfect it, rather than trying to bottle it up and hoping that bottle never breaks. America is exceptional in its embrace of the cultural value of free speech. However bad we are about it sometimes, the rest of the world (including Western Europe) is much worse. This makes me proud to be an American citizen.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pupppet 9y ago
Getting a little tired of these 'exposure will cure-all' type of comments. The only thing accomplished by not quashing sites like Daily Stormer is desensitizing us to them which only leads to legitimizing.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Getting a little tired of "not all speech should be free" comments. You're trading one brand of facism for another. Don't try to wrap your brand in the appearance of progress. To discuss does not legitimize. If you are fearful of an idea being debated, that says more about you than the idea.
  - pupppet 9y ago
    You're confusing inciting violence with free speech.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      I prefer absolute freedoms that prevent interpretation from being used to suppress those freedoms. There are costs to living in a free society. I support those rights in their entirety, and I'm not sorry for doing so.
      - thinkfurther 9y ago
        > I prefer absolute freedoms that prevent interpretation from being used to suppress those freedoms. So wait, when someone says "kill all Jews" that's an idea to be discussed, but when someone says "let's censor people who call for that" that's somehow worse, and not simply also speech you can also discuss?
        cortesoft 9y ago
        I don't think he is saying you can't ARGUE for that?
        thinkfurther 9y ago
        Then why are they "tired" of such comments? Has anyone here ever actually been near a group of, say, more than two actual nazi skinheads? Would you discuss their ideas in their basement? I'm not for censorship either, but I know what would be needed to confront such people -- namely, going past their "ideas" and to the root, their fucked up, impotent personality -- isn't even allowed on HN. If you get personal here, you're gone. So that's laughable from the get go in a way. Yet if you discuss "ideas" with a Nazi, you're just in endless quick sand. I tried discussing with Nazis, and I'm still up for it (I even tried discussing with pedophiles, but I totally noped out of there because it also achieved nothing and it was even more depressing than the Nazis). But I know the murderous cold that lingers there, and how no Nazi stands on their own. If you win the argument, you get a cold smile saying "just you wait", and that's it. Then you're back to square one. But if you didn't even try that you simply don't know what you're even talking about. edit: take the guy who murdered one person and wounded 19 severely by driving with their car into protesters. His father died early and his mother didn't know what he was up to. I'll just say, this family could used help 10-15 years ago. I don't know how or by whom, but in a magical fantasy world, that would have been the correct solution -- now you can do nothing, just look at the spilled blood. If you want to prevent more of that, look at the people who are growing up with pain today... but by the time their fist is clenched beyond a point, it will take something special or very big to change them, and otherwise they will just hate or even kill, just dwindle mentally or even suicide. Hitler wasn't random, he's the prototype. Stalin wasn't random, he's the prototype. Mental issues are the problem, fucked up childhoods are the problem, not "ideas". Don't assume everybody is that far gone, but also don't delude yourself thinking this is about ideas. And frankly, too many people here aren't even on to themselves enough to meaningfully look at anyone else's personality, and should deal with their own obedience and hiding behind abstractions first.
- msla 9y ago
  That's a very slippery slope there.
- Meekro 9y ago
  I would not consider an idea more legitimate just because it has a website, nor would I consider it less legitimate just because some censorious asshole in a web host's abuse department decided to kick it out.
- curun1r 9y ago
  Said more eloquently than I could ever hope to... "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the process of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence." - Justice Louis Brandeis, Whitney vs California
  - thinkfurther 9y ago
    You can have hundreds of years, if all you have is a piece of paper and 100m³ block of concrete, you still do not have enough time.
- bsder 9y ago
  > Getting a little tired of these 'exposure will cure-all' type of comments. The only thing accomplished by not quashing sites like Daily Stormer is desensitizing us to them which only leads to legitimizing. Perhaps this is because not enough people are stepping up? When was the last time you challenged a proclamation from some Fox News ditto head? When was the last time you looked at someone in your family spouting racist garbage and called them out on it? "Exposure cures all" only works if someone is also willing to take on the challenge of creating the exposure.
- msla 9y ago
  Your slippery slope is one other countries have already fallen off of.
problems 9y ago
It's interesting to see how differently similar comments were voted on the post about Google rejecting a neo-nazi domain compared to this post about DreamHost defending anti-Trump protesters, yet the same holds true. I will only use companies that always defend their customers for my own small business and personal sites.
- thephyber 9y ago
  There is some signalizing going on here, but I can't say I can sympathize with a Daily Stormer social media post assassinating the character of a woman who was murdered over the weekend. That kind of media coverage does affect vendors for Daily Stormer, which I assume is the only reason GoDaddy or Google cared to drop the hosting contract. I'd guess that CloudFlare will continue to push the content-indifference (so long as it is legal) -- that seems to be their corporate policy.
DeusExMachina 9y ago
Can you provide examples of how the US is better in this regard? As a counterexample, in Europe, no company can fire an employee for "perpetuating gender stereotypes", or any other opinion, while in the US it seems quite easy to fire people for any reason.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38934027 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38934027 German court upholds its ban on comedian's Erdogan poem Not the exact same business situation, but is that an example? Guy can't make a living off of his comedy because he's mocking a dictator.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    The guy gets a wage from state TV, and created the poem in the first place as an example of what is banned. The poem literally uses the most ridiculous insults he could find just to ensure it would be banned. The whole purpose of the poem was to get banned.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      Does that change anything? Mr Boehmermann's lawyer said the ruling went against "artistic freedom". "We believe that the court's decision in its concrete form is wrong, given that it deems those parts dealing with Erdogan's approach to freedom of expression to be acceptable," said Christian Schertz. per one of the links in that article
      - kuschku 9y ago
        Yes, they wanted to get the poem banned, so the law would be appealed (which it then was).
        petre 9y ago
        The said poem could easily qualify as protest art because it actually proved Germany is not really that much better than Turkey in terms of freedom of speech or freedom of artistic expression if you wish.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Free speech is not just a constitutional amendment, it's a cultural value. Its a phrase that different people use to express different culture values, but the one behind the Constitutional Amendment is, very clearly given the other evidence of the ideology of those wrote it, the freedom of private parties to speak and to use their own property to distribute their own speech and that of which they approve without constraint or compulsion by government. It is not the idea that private parties, in general, are obligated, morally or otherwise, to amplify speech whether or not they agree with it, indeed, it is diametrically opposed to that idea. It is true that there are some people who hold to the latter value and call it free speech, but that is entitlement rather than liberty.
- sushisource 9y ago
  It's fairly easy to make parent comment's idea fit what you're saying. You just need one more level of indirection (like always!). In this case, cloudflare or whatever, is exercising their free speech by saying "We care so much about free speech, we'll amplify these jerk's speech". I agree that expecting someone to do this for you is indeed a privilege, not a right. So I'd say the difference between your comments is more semantic than anything. Parent commentor doesn't really imply everyone has a right to this kind of amplification.
walterstucco 9y ago
> the rest of the world (including Western Europe) is much worse If you are not sure what you're saying is bullshit, just ask Aaron Swartz.
- nv-vn 9y ago
  Just because not everyone is granted the right in America does not make America worse than other countries. The OP is contending that the US, despite an imperfect record on free speech, is still better at it than anywhere else. Aaron Swartz is not at all a counterexample.
  - walterstucco 9y ago
    > does not make America worse than other countries. It's bullshit that western EU is worse than US. Even if we consider my country, Italy, where we already had Berlusconi and the granddaughter of Mussolini is in the parliament. USA don't learn from other countries mistakes. And when they make their own mistakes (and we in Italy had suffered a lot because of them), they say "we are still better than you" No, they're not.
    - nv-vn 9y ago
      See Meerko's comment on this [1]. The EU has a class of its own freedom of speech violations that America does not. The fact that the US has made mistakes and the EU has made mistakes isn't the deciding factor. The scope of the EU's violations seem broader to me, given differences in the definitions of hate speech [2]. Whereas the U.S. has violated the right of freedom of speech for individuals, its track record is better w.r.t. freedom of speech because the EU chooses to ban a wide portion of speech. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15013897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15013897 [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-19/free-speech-in-europe-isn-t-what-americans-think https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-19/free-spee...
      - walterstucco 9y ago
        Meerko's comment is not relevant for twO reasons: - it asserts USA is better than most western EU, it's false - it asserts that freedom to hate is proof of more freedom, but if people are not protected against hate speech and hatred, nobody is really free
cosmiccartel 9y ago
DisruptJ20 was exposed by Project Veritas for (allegedly) organizing illegal terrorist activities. Presumably, that would be the reason for this, rather than their organization of legal protests.
- sigmar 9y ago
  Have a source for any of those claims? Project Veritas lies a lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O%27Keefe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O%27Keefe
  - cosmiccartel 9y ago
    From your own link: "On January 16, 2017, Project Veritas uploaded a video showing DC Antifascist Coalition members of Disrupt J20 plotting to use 'stink bombs' at the DeploraBall. After the video's release, Disrupt J20 denied the statements, saying that the members deliberately gave false information to Veritas.[107] The video led to the arrest of one man allegedly involved in the plan,[108] as well as two associates. All three individuals pleaded guilty.[109]" [107] Bethania Palma (January 18, 2017). "Progressive Group Claims to 'Sting' Sting Video Maker James O'Keefe". Snopes. http://www.snopes.com/2017/01/18/dueling-stings http://www.snopes.com/2017/01/18/dueling-stings [108] Peter Hermann (January 25, 2017). "Meetings of activists planning to disrupt inauguration were infiltrated by conservative group". Washington Post. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/meetings-of-activists-planning-to-disrupt-inauguration-were-infiltrated-by-conservative-media-group/2017/01/24/b22128fe-e19a-11e6-ba11-63c4b4fb5a63_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/meetings-... [109] Hermann, Peter (March 7, 2017). "Protester pleads guilty to conspiring to disrupt DeploraBall for Trump supporters". The Washington Post. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/protester-pleads-guilty-to-conspiring-to-disrupt-deploraball-for-trump-supporters/2017/03/07/3f55f3da-0347-11e7-b1e9-a05d3c21f7cf_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/protester...
    - MaxfordAndSons 9y ago
      Stink bombs... o the terror /s
glenndebacker 9y ago
America’s and your holier than the pope attitude is hypocritical in this regards. I really must refrain my self to describe it as typical. You won’t see the same reaction when the story is about anti western Islamic propaganda. And I’m not talking about killing videos but speech that glorifies attacks for example in the same way that in the past day you can still read on the daily stormer how they glorify that domestic terrorism attack... For the record I’m against any content of that nature but wake me up when it’s not only nazis that needs defending their free speech.
gkya 9y ago
Upvoting this, but except the last paragraph.

by Meekro 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

pupppet 9y ago

Getting a little tired of these 'exposure will cure-all' type of comments. The only thing accomplished by not quashing sites like Daily Stormer is desensitizing us to them which only leads to legitimizing.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Getting a little tired of "not all speech should be free" comments. You're trading one brand of facism for another. Don't try to wrap your brand in the appearance of progress. To discuss does not legitimize. If you are fearful of an idea being debated, that says more about you than the idea.
- pupppet 9y ago
  You're confusing inciting violence with free speech.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    I prefer absolute freedoms that prevent interpretation from being used to suppress those freedoms. There are costs to living in a free society. I support those rights in their entirety, and I'm not sorry for doing so.
    - thinkfurther 9y ago
      > I prefer absolute freedoms that prevent interpretation from being used to suppress those freedoms. So wait, when someone says "kill all Jews" that's an idea to be discussed, but when someone says "let's censor people who call for that" that's somehow worse, and not simply also speech you can also discuss?
      - cortesoft 9y ago
        I don't think he is saying you can't ARGUE for that?
        thinkfurther 9y ago
        Then why are they "tired" of such comments? Has anyone here ever actually been near a group of, say, more than two actual nazi skinheads? Would you discuss their ideas in their basement? I'm not for censorship either, but I know what would be needed to confront such people -- namely, going past their "ideas" and to the root, their fucked up, impotent personality -- isn't even allowed on HN. If you get personal here, you're gone. So that's laughable from the get go in a way. Yet if you discuss "ideas" with a Nazi, you're just in endless quick sand. I tried discussing with Nazis, and I'm still up for it (I even tried discussing with pedophiles, but I totally noped out of there because it also achieved nothing and it was even more depressing than the Nazis). But I know the murderous cold that lingers there, and how no Nazi stands on their own. If you win the argument, you get a cold smile saying "just you wait", and that's it. Then you're back to square one. But if you didn't even try that you simply don't know what you're even talking about. edit: take the guy who murdered one person and wounded 19 severely by driving with their car into protesters. His father died early and his mother didn't know what he was up to. I'll just say, this family could used help 10-15 years ago. I don't know how or by whom, but in a magical fantasy world, that would have been the correct solution -- now you can do nothing, just look at the spilled blood. If you want to prevent more of that, look at the people who are growing up with pain today... but by the time their fist is clenched beyond a point, it will take something special or very big to change them, and otherwise they will just hate or even kill, just dwindle mentally or even suicide. Hitler wasn't random, he's the prototype. Stalin wasn't random, he's the prototype. Mental issues are the problem, fucked up childhoods are the problem, not "ideas". Don't assume everybody is that far gone, but also don't delude yourself thinking this is about ideas. And frankly, too many people here aren't even on to themselves enough to meaningfully look at anyone else's personality, and should deal with their own obedience and hiding behind abstractions first.
msla 9y ago
That's a very slippery slope there.
Meekro 9y ago
I would not consider an idea more legitimate just because it has a website, nor would I consider it less legitimate just because some censorious asshole in a web host's abuse department decided to kick it out.
curun1r 9y ago
Said more eloquently than I could ever hope to... "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the process of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence." - Justice Louis Brandeis, Whitney vs California
- thinkfurther 9y ago
  You can have hundreds of years, if all you have is a piece of paper and 100m³ block of concrete, you still do not have enough time.
bsder 9y ago
> Getting a little tired of these 'exposure will cure-all' type of comments. The only thing accomplished by not quashing sites like Daily Stormer is desensitizing us to them which only leads to legitimizing. Perhaps this is because not enough people are stepping up? When was the last time you challenged a proclamation from some Fox News ditto head? When was the last time you looked at someone in your family spouting racist garbage and called them out on it? "Exposure cures all" only works if someone is also willing to take on the challenge of creating the exposure.
msla 9y ago
Your slippery slope is one other countries have already fallen off of.

problems 9y ago

It's interesting to see how differently similar comments were voted on the post about Google rejecting a neo-nazi domain compared to this post about DreamHost defending anti-Trump protesters, yet the same holds true. I will only use companies that always defend their customers for my own small business and personal sites.

thephyber 9y ago
There is some signalizing going on here, but I can't say I can sympathize with a Daily Stormer social media post assassinating the character of a woman who was murdered over the weekend. That kind of media coverage does affect vendors for Daily Stormer, which I assume is the only reason GoDaddy or Google cared to drop the hosting contract. I'd guess that CloudFlare will continue to push the content-indifference (so long as it is legal) -- that seems to be their corporate policy.

DeusExMachina 9y ago

Can you provide examples of how the US is better in this regard? As a counterexample, in Europe, no company can fire an employee for "perpetuating gender stereotypes", or any other opinion, while in the US it seems quite easy to fire people for any reason.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38934027 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38934027 German court upholds its ban on comedian's Erdogan poem Not the exact same business situation, but is that an example? Guy can't make a living off of his comedy because he's mocking a dictator.
- kuschku 9y ago
  The guy gets a wage from state TV, and created the poem in the first place as an example of what is banned. The poem literally uses the most ridiculous insults he could find just to ensure it would be banned. The whole purpose of the poem was to get banned.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Does that change anything? Mr Boehmermann's lawyer said the ruling went against "artistic freedom". "We believe that the court's decision in its concrete form is wrong, given that it deems those parts dealing with Erdogan's approach to freedom of expression to be acceptable," said Christian Schertz. per one of the links in that article
    - kuschku 9y ago
      Yes, they wanted to get the poem banned, so the law would be appealed (which it then was).
      - petre 9y ago
        The said poem could easily qualify as protest art because it actually proved Germany is not really that much better than Turkey in terms of freedom of speech or freedom of artistic expression if you wish.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> Free speech is not just a constitutional amendment, it's a cultural value. Its a phrase that different people use to express different culture values, but the one behind the Constitutional Amendment is, very clearly given the other evidence of the ideology of those wrote it, the freedom of private parties to speak and to use their own property to distribute their own speech and that of which they approve without constraint or compulsion by government. It is not the idea that private parties, in general, are obligated, morally or otherwise, to amplify speech whether or not they agree with it, indeed, it is diametrically opposed to that idea. It is true that there are some people who hold to the latter value and call it free speech, but that is entitlement rather than liberty.

sushisource 9y ago
It's fairly easy to make parent comment's idea fit what you're saying. You just need one more level of indirection (like always!). In this case, cloudflare or whatever, is exercising their free speech by saying "We care so much about free speech, we'll amplify these jerk's speech". I agree that expecting someone to do this for you is indeed a privilege, not a right. So I'd say the difference between your comments is more semantic than anything. Parent commentor doesn't really imply everyone has a right to this kind of amplification.

walterstucco 9y ago

> the rest of the world (including Western Europe) is much worse If you are not sure what you're saying is bullshit, just ask Aaron Swartz.

nv-vn 9y ago
Just because not everyone is granted the right in America does not make America worse than other countries. The OP is contending that the US, despite an imperfect record on free speech, is still better at it than anywhere else. Aaron Swartz is not at all a counterexample.
- walterstucco 9y ago
  > does not make America worse than other countries. It's bullshit that western EU is worse than US. Even if we consider my country, Italy, where we already had Berlusconi and the granddaughter of Mussolini is in the parliament. USA don't learn from other countries mistakes. And when they make their own mistakes (and we in Italy had suffered a lot because of them), they say "we are still better than you" No, they're not.
  - nv-vn 9y ago
    See Meerko's comment on this [1]. The EU has a class of its own freedom of speech violations that America does not. The fact that the US has made mistakes and the EU has made mistakes isn't the deciding factor. The scope of the EU's violations seem broader to me, given differences in the definitions of hate speech [2]. Whereas the U.S. has violated the right of freedom of speech for individuals, its track record is better w.r.t. freedom of speech because the EU chooses to ban a wide portion of speech. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15013897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15013897 [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-19/free-speech-in-europe-isn-t-what-americans-think https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-19/free-spee...
    - walterstucco 9y ago
      Meerko's comment is not relevant for twO reasons: - it asserts USA is better than most western EU, it's false - it asserts that freedom to hate is proof of more freedom, but if people are not protected against hate speech and hatred, nobody is really free

cosmiccartel 9y ago

DisruptJ20 was exposed by Project Veritas for (allegedly) organizing illegal terrorist activities. Presumably, that would be the reason for this, rather than their organization of legal protests.

sigmar 9y ago
Have a source for any of those claims? Project Veritas lies a lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O%27Keefe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O%27Keefe
- cosmiccartel 9y ago
  From your own link: "On January 16, 2017, Project Veritas uploaded a video showing DC Antifascist Coalition members of Disrupt J20 plotting to use 'stink bombs' at the DeploraBall. After the video's release, Disrupt J20 denied the statements, saying that the members deliberately gave false information to Veritas.[107] The video led to the arrest of one man allegedly involved in the plan,[108] as well as two associates. All three individuals pleaded guilty.[109]" [107] Bethania Palma (January 18, 2017). "Progressive Group Claims to 'Sting' Sting Video Maker James O'Keefe". Snopes. http://www.snopes.com/2017/01/18/dueling-stings http://www.snopes.com/2017/01/18/dueling-stings [108] Peter Hermann (January 25, 2017). "Meetings of activists planning to disrupt inauguration were infiltrated by conservative group". Washington Post. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/meetings-of-activists-planning-to-disrupt-inauguration-were-infiltrated-by-conservative-media-group/2017/01/24/b22128fe-e19a-11e6-ba11-63c4b4fb5a63_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/meetings-... [109] Hermann, Peter (March 7, 2017). "Protester pleads guilty to conspiring to disrupt DeploraBall for Trump supporters". The Washington Post. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/protester-pleads-guilty-to-conspiring-to-disrupt-deploraball-for-trump-supporters/2017/03/07/3f55f3da-0347-11e7-b1e9-a05d3c21f7cf_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/protester...
  - MaxfordAndSons 9y ago
    Stink bombs... o the terror /s

glenndebacker 9y ago

America’s and your holier than the pope attitude is hypocritical in this regards. I really must refrain my self to describe it as typical. You won’t see the same reaction when the story is about anti western Islamic propaganda. And I’m not talking about killing videos but speech that glorifies attacks for example in the same way that in the past day you can still read on the daily stormer how they glorify that domestic terrorism attack... For the record I’m against any content of that nature but wake me up when it’s not only nazis that needs defending their free speech.

gkya 9y ago

Upvoting this, but except the last paragraph.