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I'm not really sure that Europe was that helpless. IIRC the mongols basically couldn't take European castles. As you go further west in the 1200s you start seei

I'm not really sure that Europe was that helpless. IIRC the mongols basically couldn't take European castles. As you go further west in the 1200s you start seeing higher population densities. Poland, Germany and France are all roughly the same size and in this time frame IIRC Poland had 2 million people, Germany had 10 million and France had 20 million. With the higher density came a higher density of fortifications. With a low density the Mongols could just bypass anything they couldn't take, but with enough of these forts an invading army opened itself to attack from every direction. The newer European fortresses were also a lot harder for the Mongols to attack. IIRC the Hungarians had 5 in the region the Mongols attacked and none of them fell. Germany had thousands, and they were generally higher quality. Even if they could get inside the city it was attackers in leather against defenders in plate or chain. The Mongols had no real advantages in a siege situation since they couldn't bring their coordination or mobility to bear.

nshm 9y ago
Modern history gives significantly lower estimates for those numbers, it was likely less than 2 million people in France. At the same time the Mongol's army was probably about 20k people, not 500k as claimed.
- novembermike 9y ago
  Are you sure you aren't thinking of post plague Europe? I just double checked wikipedia and it basically says between 13-20 million people in France depending on what you consider to be "France" (modern borders are closer to 20 million).
valuearb 9y ago
The mongols adopted the best tools of their enemies, they had a complete army that included siege weapons built by chinese siege engineers. They were the first to use artillery in Europe. They conquered far larger and better fortified chinese cities than any piddling castles in Europe. And you can't trap the mongols, their mobile army lived off the land and moved far too fast with a lethality that european armies couldn't deal with. The death of Chenggis Khan was the only thing that saved Europe from a massacre and enslavement by the mongols.
- novembermike 9y ago
  The Mongols were having trouble in Europe before Chenggis died and there is evidence that they turned around before they heard of his death. It's easy to mythologize the Mongols, but when they tried to move on castle builders in the levant and Eastern Europe they got their asses kicked. Repeatedly.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    There was a 20 year delay that allowed a massive preparation, including big changes in tactics and strategy by the Europeans. If Chenggis had lived, they wouldn't have had but a fraction of that time.
    - novembermike 9y ago
      "Preparation" in this case meant going from 1% as prepared as Western Europe to 5% as prepared as Western Europe. Remember, when the Mongols attacked Vienna at the same time they were beating the Polish and Hungarians they were defeated in open battle which was their strong suit.

nshm 9y ago

Modern history gives significantly lower estimates for those numbers, it was likely less than 2 million people in France. At the same time the Mongol's army was probably about 20k people, not 500k as claimed.

novembermike 9y ago
Are you sure you aren't thinking of post plague Europe? I just double checked wikipedia and it basically says between 13-20 million people in France depending on what you consider to be "France" (modern borders are closer to 20 million).

valuearb 9y ago

The mongols adopted the best tools of their enemies, they had a complete army that included siege weapons built by chinese siege engineers. They were the first to use artillery in Europe. They conquered far larger and better fortified chinese cities than any piddling castles in Europe. And you can't trap the mongols, their mobile army lived off the land and moved far too fast with a lethality that european armies couldn't deal with. The death of Chenggis Khan was the only thing that saved Europe from a massacre and enslavement by the mongols.

novembermike 9y ago
The Mongols were having trouble in Europe before Chenggis died and there is evidence that they turned around before they heard of his death. It's easy to mythologize the Mongols, but when they tried to move on castle builders in the levant and Eastern Europe they got their asses kicked. Repeatedly.
- valuearb 9y ago
  There was a 20 year delay that allowed a massive preparation, including big changes in tactics and strategy by the Europeans. If Chenggis had lived, they wouldn't have had but a fraction of that time.
  - novembermike 9y ago
    "Preparation" in this case meant going from 1% as prepared as Western Europe to 5% as prepared as Western Europe. Remember, when the Mongols attacked Vienna at the same time they were beating the Polish and Hungarians they were defeated in open battle which was their strong suit.