3 ms·

The DNS tree at least probably should get the same treatment as ISPs, i.e. being considered a utility and thus provide service to everyone.

jacquesm 9y ago
Providers of DNS services have terms of service. And arguably even if something is not in their terms of service if they deem it to be unacceptable then they are well within their rights as private companies to deny service. ISPs are all about access, the DNS is all about publishing and your ability to publish depends to a large extent on whether or not you will be able to find parties to work with to enable the publishing of the material you wish to spread. Google is under no obligation to provide such a service to a party they deem objectionable (on pretty good grounds).
- the8472 9y ago
  Considering that IP addresses you get from most service providers are dynamic you need a lookup system for others to be able to access your speech. > they are well within their rights as private companies to deny service. Many utilities are also private companies and they they are required to provide service anyway. So one does not strictly follow from the other. That's why I said DNS providers should be considered utilities. At least the national-level ones. If resellers won't take it you should still be able to get it straight from the ccTLD registrar.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    > Considering that IP addresses you get from most service providers are dynamic you need a lookup system for others to be able to access your speech. Not on the hosting side. > Many utilities are also private companies and they they are required to provide service anyway. Yes, but they're not. DNS is a nice-to-have, not a must. Hosting is a must, if you want to make a case then you are going to have an uphill battle where a hosting provider would have to supply and and all paying customers.
    - the8472 9y ago
      > Not on the hosting side. I assumed we were talking about hosting from home, since hosting at some datacenter would again be dealing with additional private entities. > if you want to make a case then you are going to have an uphill battle where a hosting provider would have to supply and and all paying customers. I guess that would be an alternative. So either non-discriminatory treatment from hosters or non-discriminatory treatment from ISPs + DNS registrars.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        Hosting (anything) from home is against the TOS of almost all providers.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        It may be on a consumer account, but you can get a business account at a residential address from most providers; and in many cases you need to to get the balance of upstream to downstream to you'd want for hosting, even leaving aside ToS concerns.
  - DougWebb 9y ago
    Many utilities are also private companies and they they are required to provide service anyway. That's because they're not exactly private companies; they're government-sponsored monopolies. If they weren't, and if there were real competition for the services they provide (like all of the other local businesses), then they wouldn't be required to provide services to any particular customer.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Considering that IP addresses you get from most service providers are dynamic you need a lookup system for others to be able to access your speech. Static IPs are available and if you are hosting content you usually should prefer them.
dragonwriter 9y ago
FWIW, I don't necessarily disagree with this and certainly think that it's a debate we should have. OTOH, I think in the regime we do have, expecting Nazis to get a free pass for violating registration firms TOS is unreasonable, and granting such an exception, even silently by failure to enforce, would send a terrible message.
- the8472 9y ago
  My point is that they (at least ccTLD registry operators) should not be allowed to have arbitrary ToS. As long as it is legal and the customer can pay non-discriminatory prices they should not have any leverage to remove them. Just like you can't get kicked from your internet service, electricity or water providers for arbitrary reasons.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Just like you can't get kicked from your internet service, electricity or water providers for arbitrary reasons. Given that the net neutrality regulations which were adopted to actually explicit protect all lawful content and applications are unlikely to ever go into effect given the new FCC makeup, this is not true. Nothing stops ISPs today from having restrictive, content-based TOS restricting lawful activity. That being said, I can appreciate the argument that DNS service should be covered in an even more expansive net neutrality framework than the one we almost had in the US.
    - the8472 9y ago
      Yes, I was assuming net neutrality. Without it the whole discussion is moot since your traffic could just get tossed out at any time by any provider along the route.

jacquesm 9y ago

Providers of DNS services have terms of service. And arguably even if something is not in their terms of service if they deem it to be unacceptable then they are well within their rights as private companies to deny service. ISPs are all about access, the DNS is all about publishing and your ability to publish depends to a large extent on whether or not you will be able to find parties to work with to enable the publishing of the material you wish to spread. Google is under no obligation to provide such a service to a party they deem objectionable (on pretty good grounds).

the8472 9y ago
Considering that IP addresses you get from most service providers are dynamic you need a lookup system for others to be able to access your speech. > they are well within their rights as private companies to deny service. Many utilities are also private companies and they they are required to provide service anyway. So one does not strictly follow from the other. That's why I said DNS providers should be considered utilities. At least the national-level ones. If resellers won't take it you should still be able to get it straight from the ccTLD registrar.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > Considering that IP addresses you get from most service providers are dynamic you need a lookup system for others to be able to access your speech. Not on the hosting side. > Many utilities are also private companies and they they are required to provide service anyway. Yes, but they're not. DNS is a nice-to-have, not a must. Hosting is a must, if you want to make a case then you are going to have an uphill battle where a hosting provider would have to supply and and all paying customers.
  - the8472 9y ago
    > Not on the hosting side. I assumed we were talking about hosting from home, since hosting at some datacenter would again be dealing with additional private entities. > if you want to make a case then you are going to have an uphill battle where a hosting provider would have to supply and and all paying customers. I guess that would be an alternative. So either non-discriminatory treatment from hosters or non-discriminatory treatment from ISPs + DNS registrars.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Hosting (anything) from home is against the TOS of almost all providers.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        It may be on a consumer account, but you can get a business account at a residential address from most providers; and in many cases you need to to get the balance of upstream to downstream to you'd want for hosting, even leaving aside ToS concerns.
- DougWebb 9y ago
  Many utilities are also private companies and they they are required to provide service anyway. That's because they're not exactly private companies; they're government-sponsored monopolies. If they weren't, and if there were real competition for the services they provide (like all of the other local businesses), then they wouldn't be required to provide services to any particular customer.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Considering that IP addresses you get from most service providers are dynamic you need a lookup system for others to be able to access your speech. Static IPs are available and if you are hosting content you usually should prefer them.

dragonwriter 9y ago

FWIW, I don't necessarily disagree with this and certainly think that it's a debate we should have. OTOH, I think in the regime we do have, expecting Nazis to get a free pass for violating registration firms TOS is unreasonable, and granting such an exception, even silently by failure to enforce, would send a terrible message.

the8472 9y ago
My point is that they (at least ccTLD registry operators) should not be allowed to have arbitrary ToS. As long as it is legal and the customer can pay non-discriminatory prices they should not have any leverage to remove them. Just like you can't get kicked from your internet service, electricity or water providers for arbitrary reasons.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Just like you can't get kicked from your internet service, electricity or water providers for arbitrary reasons. Given that the net neutrality regulations which were adopted to actually explicit protect all lawful content and applications are unlikely to ever go into effect given the new FCC makeup, this is not true. Nothing stops ISPs today from having restrictive, content-based TOS restricting lawful activity. That being said, I can appreciate the argument that DNS service should be covered in an even more expansive net neutrality framework than the one we almost had in the US.
  - the8472 9y ago
    Yes, I was assuming net neutrality. Without it the whole discussion is moot since your traffic could just get tossed out at any time by any provider along the route.