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A truly revolutionary idea in this era of authoritarian social justice causes.

by mberning 9y ago

virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago
In what way are social justice causes authoritarian?
- reitanqild 9y ago
  Not in itself. I'll even sometimes step up myself and at some point managed to get my boss to hire the girl who cleaned our offices since she was qualified only hadn't been considered since she was Polish. The insistence on punishment (firing, public shaming) for minor offences (wrongthink) withouth due process is worrying though.
  - Frondo 9y ago
    I'm going to push back on the critique of shaming. It's literally the only consequence groups without any (economic/political) power have. It bears no force of law. It creates no consequence directly except for a little discomfort on the part of the recipient. Tell historically disadvantaged communities--the ones with decades or centuries of societal biases working against them--they can't shame people they think are behaving shamefully, and what do you leave them with? The critique of shaming just seems like another way to prop up a status quo that isn't a very good one for a lot of people.
    - virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago
      Well put—thank you.
    - reitanqild 9y ago
      It's literally the only consequence groups without any (economic/political) power have. To me it seems it is more used by resourceful people.
    - philwelch 9y ago
      Shaming people is an exercise of political power. If a group truly lacks political power, they're not capable of effectively shaming anyone.
    - msla 9y ago
      Shaming by some groups is a badge of honor: If I'm hated by a certain unpopular political group, that's a real point in my favor in some regions. It's credibility you can't buy. And it doesn't matter if the group which hates me is powerful, as long as they're hated in turn by the people I want credibility with. The only way shaming hurts me is if the group doing the shaming is powerful among people I care about. Thus shaming is an expression of power, and a use of social force which must come from groups which have power.
      - Powerofmene 9y ago
        This goes back to that old adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
  - mediocrejoker 9y ago
    Public shaming for wrongthink? I have no idea what you are talking about, nor how it relates to the article. Can you explain a bit more?
- virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago
  Why is this question downvoted?
  - arkitaip 9y ago
    HN has a terrible bias towards white dudes and now that it's their privilege that's being questioned - as opposed to that of blur collar workers, conservatives, hillbillies etc - they are in full panic mode. Can't even discuss or take in another POV - just downvote.
    - virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago
      Yes, I have noticed. :(
  - thinkfurther 9y ago
    Why are you not dealing with the response? The very fact that this story got flagged to page two after 5 hours, with 600+ points and only 300+ comments, kind of shows what's going on.
dang 9y ago
Generic ideological tangents never lead anywhere interesting and pretty much guarantee contentless flamewars, so please don't take HN threads in such directions. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15010185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15010185 and marked it off-topic.
- JelteF 9y ago
  Could you explain why this post is disapearing from the frontpage as fast as it is? Even though it has the most votes in very little time. (see my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15011458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15011458)
  - dang 9y ago
    Users are flagging it heavily, as they have been flagging most opinion pieces that have appeared during this tidal wave. People who feel strongly one way or the other typically want to see the articles they agree with stay on the front page and the ones they disagree with get flagged. But from a systemic point of view, it isn't in HN's interest to have the front page dominated by repetitive arguments (and certainly not repetitive flamewars) about the same thing. That's not what the site is for and not why the majority of HN users come here.
    - mberning 9y ago
      I find the stance of HN admins/managers on these type stories incredibly biased. When something is agreeable to the "more X in tech" trope it stays on the front page for hours and gets hundreds of points. When a story that is counter to that trope gains traction it quickly drops off the page and admins/managers are all over the discussion picking and chosing what to suppress. The whole google memo/James Damore thing is a perfect example of this. I don't know if it is general community bias, astroturfing, censorship, or whatever. It is clear that the community has a lot of interest in this and some entity is very eager to minimize the discussion. It's disgusting.
      - 9y ago

A truly revolutionary idea in this era of authoritarian social justice causes.

virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago

In what way are social justice causes authoritarian?

reitanqild 9y ago
Not in itself. I'll even sometimes step up myself and at some point managed to get my boss to hire the girl who cleaned our offices since she was qualified only hadn't been considered since she was Polish. The insistence on punishment (firing, public shaming) for minor offences (wrongthink) withouth due process is worrying though.
- Frondo 9y ago
  I'm going to push back on the critique of shaming. It's literally the only consequence groups without any (economic/political) power have. It bears no force of law. It creates no consequence directly except for a little discomfort on the part of the recipient. Tell historically disadvantaged communities--the ones with decades or centuries of societal biases working against them--they can't shame people they think are behaving shamefully, and what do you leave them with? The critique of shaming just seems like another way to prop up a status quo that isn't a very good one for a lot of people.
  - virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago
    Well put—thank you.
  - reitanqild 9y ago
    It's literally the only consequence groups without any (economic/political) power have. To me it seems it is more used by resourceful people.
  - philwelch 9y ago
    Shaming people is an exercise of political power. If a group truly lacks political power, they're not capable of effectively shaming anyone.
  - msla 9y ago
    Shaming by some groups is a badge of honor: If I'm hated by a certain unpopular political group, that's a real point in my favor in some regions. It's credibility you can't buy. And it doesn't matter if the group which hates me is powerful, as long as they're hated in turn by the people I want credibility with. The only way shaming hurts me is if the group doing the shaming is powerful among people I care about. Thus shaming is an expression of power, and a use of social force which must come from groups which have power.
    - Powerofmene 9y ago
      This goes back to that old adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
- mediocrejoker 9y ago
  Public shaming for wrongthink? I have no idea what you are talking about, nor how it relates to the article. Can you explain a bit more?
virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago
Why is this question downvoted?
- arkitaip 9y ago
  HN has a terrible bias towards white dudes and now that it's their privilege that's being questioned - as opposed to that of blur collar workers, conservatives, hillbillies etc - they are in full panic mode. Can't even discuss or take in another POV - just downvote.
  - virgil_disgr4ce 9y ago
    Yes, I have noticed. :(
- thinkfurther 9y ago
  Why are you not dealing with the response? The very fact that this story got flagged to page two after 5 hours, with 600+ points and only 300+ comments, kind of shows what's going on.

dang 9y ago

Generic ideological tangents never lead anywhere interesting and pretty much guarantee contentless flamewars, so please don't take HN threads in such directions. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15010185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15010185 and marked it off-topic.

JelteF 9y ago
Could you explain why this post is disapearing from the frontpage as fast as it is? Even though it has the most votes in very little time. (see my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15011458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15011458)
- dang 9y ago
  Users are flagging it heavily, as they have been flagging most opinion pieces that have appeared during this tidal wave. People who feel strongly one way or the other typically want to see the articles they agree with stay on the front page and the ones they disagree with get flagged. But from a systemic point of view, it isn't in HN's interest to have the front page dominated by repetitive arguments (and certainly not repetitive flamewars) about the same thing. That's not what the site is for and not why the majority of HN users come here.
  - mberning 9y ago
    I find the stance of HN admins/managers on these type stories incredibly biased. When something is agreeable to the "more X in tech" trope it stays on the front page for hours and gets hundreds of points. When a story that is counter to that trope gains traction it quickly drops off the page and admins/managers are all over the discussion picking and chosing what to suppress. The whole google memo/James Damore thing is a perfect example of this. I don't know if it is general community bias, astroturfing, censorship, or whatever. It is clear that the community has a lot of interest in this and some entity is very eager to minimize the discussion. It's disgusting.
    - 9y ago