5 ms·

these ships can't use the Suez canal in peace-time under the currently negotiated treaties. if they really truly must go through the canal, who's gonna stop the

these ships can't use the Suez canal in peace-time under the currently negotiated treaties. if they really truly must go through the canal, who's gonna stop them?

isostatic 9y ago
Egypt could scuttle a ship or two if they wanted - at both ends, trapping the fleet inside. Seems to me that canals make rather sitting targets for warships, at war time at least.
- djrogers 9y ago
  A carrier battle group is more than powerful enough to control both ends of the canal for the duration of the trip, and I seriously doubt that Egypt (or any other country) would want to cripple an economic engine as large as a canal unless they were directly involved in the war in question.
  - gaius 9y ago
    Really? Multiple carrier groups, plus ground contingents from the Army and Marines, plus the Air Force are unable to "control" Iraq or Afghanistan...
    - StudyAnimal 9y ago
      I am no military genius, but Iraq and Afghanistan sound larger, more complex, and not as commandable by sea as a typical canal.
      - gaius 9y ago
        Perhaps you are unaware of the events of 1956 when the combined forces of Britain and France failed to hold the Suez Canal?
        ryanwaggoner 9y ago
        Perhaps you're unaware of the power that a US Navy carrier group has in 2017 :)
        gaius 9y ago
        It's all relative, no?
  - Taniwha 9y ago
    how are you going to stop someone from scuttling a ship? sink it?
    - tombrossman 9y ago
      > how are you going to stop someone from scuttling a ship? sink it? Yes. A carrier group is able to project military power for a great distance around itself. Long range missiles, submarines, aircraft, you name it. Presumably it would monitor the canal along its entire length, and destroy anything that approaches by land or sea before it is able to create or become an obstacle.
      - chiph 9y ago
        They can't stop a team in a small boat from boarding a merchantman, positioning it cross-ways in the canal, then sinking it. Do this once at each end, and your carrier group just lost it's mobility and much of it's ability to project force.
        tombrossman 9y ago
        Admittedly there are edge cases and military planners like nothing more than dreaming these up and devising countermeasures. The Suez and Panama Canals are not small, so it's not as if all the ships have to crowd together and be trapped in a small area. But yes, there are threats and their probability of success is never 100%. Here's an interesting lesson from WW2 which shows the danger of previously unknown coastal torpedo batteries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Drøbak_Sound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Drøbak_Sound
      - ZanyProgrammer 9y ago
        Then Egypt has declared war on the United States and is going to have much bigger issues to deal with.
        isostatic 9y ago
        If the US sent in it's fleet when Egypt says no, that's the US declaring war through the act of invading a foreign country.
- rory096 9y ago
  >Egypt could scuttle a ship or two if they wanted - at both ends, trapping the fleet inside. See the Yellow Fleet, trapped in the Suez Canal for 8 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet
webnrrd2k 9y ago
Anybody with an anti-ship miss that they can launch from shore. Gary Brecher/War Nerd wrote an article, that I can't find at the moment, about how vulnerable the US Navy is to attack by shore-based missles where the Navy doesn't have a good stand-off distance.

these ships can't use the Suez canal in peace-time under the currently negotiated treaties. if they really truly must go through the canal, who's gonna stop them?

isostatic 9y ago

Egypt could scuttle a ship or two if they wanted - at both ends, trapping the fleet inside. Seems to me that canals make rather sitting targets for warships, at war time at least.

djrogers 9y ago
A carrier battle group is more than powerful enough to control both ends of the canal for the duration of the trip, and I seriously doubt that Egypt (or any other country) would want to cripple an economic engine as large as a canal unless they were directly involved in the war in question.
- gaius 9y ago
  Really? Multiple carrier groups, plus ground contingents from the Army and Marines, plus the Air Force are unable to "control" Iraq or Afghanistan...
  - StudyAnimal 9y ago
    I am no military genius, but Iraq and Afghanistan sound larger, more complex, and not as commandable by sea as a typical canal.
    - gaius 9y ago
      Perhaps you are unaware of the events of 1956 when the combined forces of Britain and France failed to hold the Suez Canal?
      - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
        Perhaps you're unaware of the power that a US Navy carrier group has in 2017 :)
        gaius 9y ago
        It's all relative, no?
- Taniwha 9y ago
  how are you going to stop someone from scuttling a ship? sink it?
  - tombrossman 9y ago
    > how are you going to stop someone from scuttling a ship? sink it? Yes. A carrier group is able to project military power for a great distance around itself. Long range missiles, submarines, aircraft, you name it. Presumably it would monitor the canal along its entire length, and destroy anything that approaches by land or sea before it is able to create or become an obstacle.
    - chiph 9y ago
      They can't stop a team in a small boat from boarding a merchantman, positioning it cross-ways in the canal, then sinking it. Do this once at each end, and your carrier group just lost it's mobility and much of it's ability to project force.
      - tombrossman 9y ago
        Admittedly there are edge cases and military planners like nothing more than dreaming these up and devising countermeasures. The Suez and Panama Canals are not small, so it's not as if all the ships have to crowd together and be trapped in a small area. But yes, there are threats and their probability of success is never 100%. Here's an interesting lesson from WW2 which shows the danger of previously unknown coastal torpedo batteries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Drøbak_Sound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Drøbak_Sound
    - ZanyProgrammer 9y ago
      Then Egypt has declared war on the United States and is going to have much bigger issues to deal with.
      - isostatic 9y ago
        If the US sent in it's fleet when Egypt says no, that's the US declaring war through the act of invading a foreign country.
rory096 9y ago
>Egypt could scuttle a ship or two if they wanted - at both ends, trapping the fleet inside. See the Yellow Fleet, trapped in the Suez Canal for 8 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet

webnrrd2k 9y ago

Anybody with an anti-ship miss that they can launch from shore. Gary Brecher/War Nerd wrote an article, that I can't find at the moment, about how vulnerable the US Navy is to attack by shore-based missles where the Navy doesn't have a good stand-off distance.