4 ms·

Easy file sharing? Shared chat logs across devices? Easy encryption? Easy voice chats? Video chats? Group voice/video chats? These are all things that I have o

by sweden 9y ago

Easy file sharing? Shared chat logs across devices? Easy encryption? Easy voice chats? Video chats? Group voice/video chats? These are all things that I have on Matrix out-of-the-box and that I have some trouble getting on XMPP. I run my own XMPP server, I have been doing it for a couple of years, but getting some modern features is very difficult, if not impossible. But with Matrix everything is quite easy.

SamWhited 9y ago
I feel like clients and servers have fixed most of these. I've never had to do anything to have chat logs, all devices just have it thanks to MAM, file sharing is done with HTTP Upload, encryption is done with OMEMO (axolotl/Olm, although this one is still making its way into clients many support it already), voice and video is still a problem but lots of XMPP based services exist to make it easier (Jitsi Meet). It's only not a problem with Matrix yet because they have a single client; if they ever get as popular as XMPP and have many, they'll have the same fragmentation issues. What the XSF needs is one really good desktop client to compete; something with a feature set comparable to Convesations on Android, and good looks to boot.
- ryukafalz 9y ago
  >I've never had to do anything to have chat logs, all devices just have it thanks to MAM Android has Conversations, which has pretty good XEP support. But I can count on one hand the number of desktop clients that support this, and none of them are Pidgin[0] or Adium, which are probably the two most popular desktop XMPP clients (though it's hard to know for sure). Gajim supports it but not for multi-user chats[1]. Chat history is certainly not a solved problem overall in XMPP. >It's only not a problem with Matrix yet because they have a single client Matrix has lots of clients, the difference is it has an official reference client that supports (almost) all the protocol's features. [0] https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/15653 https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/15653 [1] https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/8036 https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/8036
ge0rg 9y ago
File sharing, cross-device logs and encryption have been addressed in the last one-two years, pushed forward by Conversations on Android. However, getting that into other clients (e.g. on desktop/web) requires dedicated developers, and this is where XMPP currently lacks a little bit - not for lack of motivation but for lack of time.
- dmitriid 9y ago
  "Addressed" as in "most of the XEPs are marked as experimental and are subject to change".
  - ge0rg 9y ago
    That might look a bit weird on the outside, but this is how protocol design works in the XSF. First you make a proposal (which is marked as Experimental), then you implement it and wait for other people to implement it as well, and then you look how well it works and whether it has rough edges that need fixing. If it is considered good, it moves on to Draft and then to Final [0]. This process could be faster for sure, but that requires independent developers to work on implementations and to share their experience. [0] https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#approval-std https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#approval-std
    - detaro 9y ago
      Is there a set of mobile and desktop clients that support all these things you said were "addressed" properly? People always parade Conversations, but if I want phone-only I already have to many messengers. Because if have to look through tables and bug trackers to figure out what client/server combination I can use (and have to pester my friends to use(!)) you can't count something as "addressed" IMHO. I still use only a very basic set of features with XMPP, because in my experience attempts to get anything advanced are way to time-intensive to be worth it for the few buddies still on XMPP, and I can't really push new people onto it that way.
    - dmitriid 9y ago
      > WARNING: This Standards-Track document is Experimental. Publication as an XMPP Extension Protocol does not imply approval of this proposal by the XMPP Standards Foundation. Implementation of the protocol described herein is encouraged in exploratory implementations, but production systems are advised to carefully consider whether it is appropriate to deploy implementations of this protocol before it advances to a status of Draft. Let me stress this: > production systems are advised to carefully consider whether it is appropriate to deploy implementations of this protocol before it advances to a status of Draft That's from XEP-0363: HTTP File Upload.
nextos 9y ago
I like Matrix, but don't you think Riot has a really convoluted UI? I was hoping to be able to adopt it for communications within my family and friends, but it did confuse me a lot. Especially on Android.
- Arathorn 9y ago
  Riot's UI could be way better (i work on it), but we're constantly iterating to try to nail the UX. We changed it a lot on Android last month though (https://medium.com/@RiotChat/riot-im-unveils-the-next-generation-of-its-mobile-client-6b38e2227ee2 https://medium.com/@RiotChat/riot-im-unveils-the-next-genera...) so might be worth trying if you haven't recently.
  - nextos 9y ago
    Looks nice. I didn't try this version. My last attempt was on F-Droid last month, just before the upgrade.

by sweden 9y ago

SamWhited 9y ago

I feel like clients and servers have fixed most of these. I've never had to do anything to have chat logs, all devices just have it thanks to MAM, file sharing is done with HTTP Upload, encryption is done with OMEMO (axolotl/Olm, although this one is still making its way into clients many support it already), voice and video is still a problem but lots of XMPP based services exist to make it easier (Jitsi Meet). It's only not a problem with Matrix yet because they have a single client; if they ever get as popular as XMPP and have many, they'll have the same fragmentation issues. What the XSF needs is one really good desktop client to compete; something with a feature set comparable to Convesations on Android, and good looks to boot.

ryukafalz 9y ago
>I've never had to do anything to have chat logs, all devices just have it thanks to MAM Android has Conversations, which has pretty good XEP support. But I can count on one hand the number of desktop clients that support this, and none of them are Pidgin[0] or Adium, which are probably the two most popular desktop XMPP clients (though it's hard to know for sure). Gajim supports it but not for multi-user chats[1]. Chat history is certainly not a solved problem overall in XMPP. >It's only not a problem with Matrix yet because they have a single client Matrix has lots of clients, the difference is it has an official reference client that supports (almost) all the protocol's features. [0] https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/15653 https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/15653 [1] https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/8036 https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/8036

ge0rg 9y ago

File sharing, cross-device logs and encryption have been addressed in the last one-two years, pushed forward by Conversations on Android. However, getting that into other clients (e.g. on desktop/web) requires dedicated developers, and this is where XMPP currently lacks a little bit - not for lack of motivation but for lack of time.

dmitriid 9y ago
"Addressed" as in "most of the XEPs are marked as experimental and are subject to change".
- ge0rg 9y ago
  That might look a bit weird on the outside, but this is how protocol design works in the XSF. First you make a proposal (which is marked as Experimental), then you implement it and wait for other people to implement it as well, and then you look how well it works and whether it has rough edges that need fixing. If it is considered good, it moves on to Draft and then to Final [0]. This process could be faster for sure, but that requires independent developers to work on implementations and to share their experience. [0] https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#approval-std https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#approval-std
  - detaro 9y ago
    Is there a set of mobile and desktop clients that support all these things you said were "addressed" properly? People always parade Conversations, but if I want phone-only I already have to many messengers. Because if have to look through tables and bug trackers to figure out what client/server combination I can use (and have to pester my friends to use(!)) you can't count something as "addressed" IMHO. I still use only a very basic set of features with XMPP, because in my experience attempts to get anything advanced are way to time-intensive to be worth it for the few buddies still on XMPP, and I can't really push new people onto it that way.
  - dmitriid 9y ago
    > WARNING: This Standards-Track document is Experimental. Publication as an XMPP Extension Protocol does not imply approval of this proposal by the XMPP Standards Foundation. Implementation of the protocol described herein is encouraged in exploratory implementations, but production systems are advised to carefully consider whether it is appropriate to deploy implementations of this protocol before it advances to a status of Draft. Let me stress this: > production systems are advised to carefully consider whether it is appropriate to deploy implementations of this protocol before it advances to a status of Draft That's from XEP-0363: HTTP File Upload.

nextos 9y ago

I like Matrix, but don't you think Riot has a really convoluted UI? I was hoping to be able to adopt it for communications within my family and friends, but it did confuse me a lot. Especially on Android.

Arathorn 9y ago
Riot's UI could be way better (i work on it), but we're constantly iterating to try to nail the UX. We changed it a lot on Android last month though (https://medium.com/@RiotChat/riot-im-unveils-the-next-generation-of-its-mobile-client-6b38e2227ee2 https://medium.com/@RiotChat/riot-im-unveils-the-next-genera...) so might be worth trying if you haven't recently.
- nextos 9y ago
  Looks nice. I didn't try this version. My last attempt was on F-Droid last month, just before the upgrade.