7 ms·

The claims of sexism in this article are shaky, at best. A programmer created a memo about how the small proportion of women in programming is likely to be due

by zygga 9y ago

The claims of sexism in this article are shaky, at best. A programmer created a memo about how the small proportion of women in programming is likely to be due to biology, Google fired them, and that's somewhow supposed to prove that there's a "toxic bro culture"? A memo, which most professors of the subject matter seem to mostly agree with... which makes its vilification questionable.

mcguire 9y ago
Google fired him, and his supporters seem to have responded...poorly. * https://www.facebook.com/myiannopoulos/photos/a.599546946849871.1073741829.423006854503882/987587484712480/?type=3&theater https://www.facebook.com/myiannopoulos/photos/a.599546946849... * https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/10/16128518/google-town-hall-meeting-canceled-online-harassment https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/10/16128518/google-town-hall... Sounds pretty toxic to me. Most professors? * https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-biological-claims-made-in-the-document-about-diversity-written-by-a-Google-employee-in-August-2017/answer/Suzanne-Sadedin?amp&share=1&srid=2n17 https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...
- humanrebar 9y ago
  How are Twitter and bretbart.com part of Google company culture? Twitter (the company) counts as Silicon Valley culture, but I don't see how all of its users do. Besides, unless Damore has organized all this somehow, it's just a big guilt by (AFAIK unasked for) association argument.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    Someone inside Google took screenshots of the internal G+ discussion of his document and passed those screenshots, along with identifying information about the users, to groups that have a history of lighting off internet shitstorms. It is, I assume, extremely unlikely that Damore organized any of this. On the other hand, his document did assert that the issues were intrinsically aligned with the United States' left/right political spectrum as well as making his stance towards that particular dichotomy known.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      > Someone inside Google took screenshots of the internal G+ discussion of his document... Well, that establishes a culture of leaking and doxxing, especially when you count that it happened to Damore. > ...to groups that have a history of lighting off internet shitstorms. Well, this whole thing was a kerfuffle until Damore was fired. That's when the shitstorm started. This is why people need to be careful about taking the "nuclear option" in an argument. People tend to retaliate in kind. To be clear, I detest all of the above in an intelligent discussion. But I think the people piling on Damore for cultural issues aren't seeing the forest for the trees.
- mpweiher 9y ago
  How often is that post going to be bandied about as The Final Truth?? 1. "Argues for biologically determined sex differences... Not really. Argues that we can't rule out biologically influenced differences. 2. "fails to understand the current state of research " Well, there's a whole bunch of researchers who disagree with that. 3. "argues cognitive sex differences influence performance" Nope. Argues there are differences in preferences that come out at the population level. 3a) "in software engineering, but presents no supporting evidence" Sort of true. It doesn't present evidence for performance differences, because it doesn't make that claim. It presents evidence for differences in preference, which is that it does claim 4. "fails to acknowledge ways in which sex differences violate the narrative of female inferiority;" I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. 5. "assumes effective meritocracy" Nope. See above about preference vs. ability. In fact, does quite the opposite, by assuming preferences and not abilities are often a stronger influence. 6. "makes repugnant attacks on compassion and empathy" COMPLETELY WRONG. It references a plea for compassion instead of empathy, because empathy leads to bad outcomes, Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion by Paul Bloom: "Brilliantly argued, urgent and humane, AGAINST EMPATHY shows us that, when it comes to both major policy decisions and the choices we make in our everyday lives, limiting our impulse toward empathy is often the most compassionate choice we can make." -- https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29100194-against-empathy 7. "contains hints of racism" Huh? Where? 8. "paradoxically insists that authoritarianism be treated as a valid moral dimension" Huh? Where? 8a. "whilst firmly rejecting any diversity-motivated strategy that might remotely approach it" Huh? He says that diversity programs at Google aren't working and he wants to replace them with ones that he thinks have a better chance of working. 9. "ultimately advocates rejecting all morality insofar as it might compromise the interests of a group." Huh? He thinks the current programs are immoral and ineffective and makes a moral argument for replacing them. So complete and utter BS. And of course there are quite a few scientists who completely agree with him: http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/ http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU And more. And unlike here, they don't cite pop-sci books as evidence.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/ http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... There, we find * Lee Jussim, whose blog posts on similar issues have been quoted about as many times as Suzanne Sadedin's Quora answer. * David P Schmitt, who writes, "But it is not clear to me how such sex differences are relevant to the Google workplace. And even if sex differences in negative emotionality were relevant to occupational performance..., the size of these negative emotion sex differences is not very large (typically, ranging between “small” to “moderate” in statistical effect size terminology; accounting for less than 10% of the variance). So, using someone’s biological sex to essentialize an entire group of people’s personality would be like operating with an axe. Not precise enough to do much good, probably will cause a lot of harm. Moreover, men are more emotional than women in certain ways, too. Sex differences in emotion depend on the type of emotion, how it is measured, where it is expressed, when it is expressed, and lots of other contextual factors. "As to sex differences in mate preferences and status-seeking, these topics also have been heavily researched across cultures.... Again, though, most of these sex differences are moderate in size and in my view are unlikely to be all that relevant to the Google workplace.... Sex differences in occupational interests, personal values, and certain cognitive abilities are a bit larger in size..., but most psychological sex differences are only small to moderate in size, and rather than grouping men and women into dichotomous groups, I think sex and sex differences are best thought of scientifically as multidimensional dials, anyway.... "Now, treating people as dichotomous sexes is exactly what many affirmative action policies do. As this is not my area of expertise, I can only offer my non-expert opinion on this issue, which is this: There have been (and likely will continue to be) many socio-structural barriers to women working in technological jobs. These include culturally-embedded gender stereotypes, biased socialization practices, in some cultures explicit employment discrimination, and a certain degree of masculinization of technological workplaces. Within this sea of gender bias, should Google use various practices...to especially encourage capable women of joining (and enjoying) the Google workplace? I vote yes. At the same time, should we be able to openly discuss and be informed by some of the real psychological sex differences that might account for variation in men’s and women’s workplace performance? In the right context, I vote yes to that, too." * Geoffrey Miller, who seems to fundamentally miss the point: "So, psychological interchangeability makes diversity meaningless. But psychological differences make equal outcomes impossible. Equality or diversity. You can’t have both. "Weirdly, the same people who advocate for equality of outcome in every aspect of corporate life, also tend to advocate for diversity in every aspect of corporate life. They don’t even see the fundamentally irreconcilable assumptions behind this ‘equality and diversity’ dogma." (I'll just point out that Google has essentially interviewed its way through the entire cadre of computer science graduates from the last couple of decades. The idea that it may want to increase the size of its candidate pool makes a certain amount of business sense on its own.) * Debra W Soh, who I am having a bit of trouble understanding: "Within the field of neuroscience, sex differences between women and men—when it comes to brain structure and function and associated differences in personality and occupational preferences—are understood to be true, because the evidence for them (thousands of studies) is strong. This is not information that’s considered controversial or up for debate; if you tried to argue otherwise, or for purely social influences, you’d be laughed at. "Sex researchers recognize that these differences are not inherently supportive of sexism or stratifying opportunities based on sex. It is only because a group of individuals have chosen to interpret them that way, and to subsequently deny the science around them, that we have to have this conversation at a public level." (The group of individuals who have chosen to interpret sex differences as "inherently supportive of sexism or stratifying opportunities based on sex" is quite large, really.) Thanks for the link!
- zygga 9y ago
  Yes, most professors of the subject matter who have expressed their opinions agree: http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/ http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... The link you provided is no exception, as the writer is not a professor; while that's obviously an arbitrary distinction, I have to draw the line somewhere. Also, it's incredibly you seem to equate the people supporting Damore with the person himself.

by zygga 9y ago

mcguire 9y ago

Google fired him, and his supporters seem to have responded...poorly. * https://www.facebook.com/myiannopoulos/photos/a.599546946849871.1073741829.423006854503882/987587484712480/?type=3&theater https://www.facebook.com/myiannopoulos/photos/a.599546946849... * https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/10/16128518/google-town-hall-meeting-canceled-online-harassment https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/10/16128518/google-town-hall... Sounds pretty toxic to me. Most professors? * https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-biological-claims-made-in-the-document-about-diversity-written-by-a-Google-employee-in-August-2017/answer/Suzanne-Sadedin?amp&share=1&srid=2n17 https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...

humanrebar 9y ago
How are Twitter and bretbart.com part of Google company culture? Twitter (the company) counts as Silicon Valley culture, but I don't see how all of its users do. Besides, unless Damore has organized all this somehow, it's just a big guilt by (AFAIK unasked for) association argument.
- mcguire 9y ago
  Someone inside Google took screenshots of the internal G+ discussion of his document and passed those screenshots, along with identifying information about the users, to groups that have a history of lighting off internet shitstorms. It is, I assume, extremely unlikely that Damore organized any of this. On the other hand, his document did assert that the issues were intrinsically aligned with the United States' left/right political spectrum as well as making his stance towards that particular dichotomy known.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    > Someone inside Google took screenshots of the internal G+ discussion of his document... Well, that establishes a culture of leaking and doxxing, especially when you count that it happened to Damore. > ...to groups that have a history of lighting off internet shitstorms. Well, this whole thing was a kerfuffle until Damore was fired. That's when the shitstorm started. This is why people need to be careful about taking the "nuclear option" in an argument. People tend to retaliate in kind. To be clear, I detest all of the above in an intelligent discussion. But I think the people piling on Damore for cultural issues aren't seeing the forest for the trees.
mpweiher 9y ago
How often is that post going to be bandied about as The Final Truth?? 1. "Argues for biologically determined sex differences... Not really. Argues that we can't rule out biologically influenced differences. 2. "fails to understand the current state of research " Well, there's a whole bunch of researchers who disagree with that. 3. "argues cognitive sex differences influence performance" Nope. Argues there are differences in preferences that come out at the population level. 3a) "in software engineering, but presents no supporting evidence" Sort of true. It doesn't present evidence for performance differences, because it doesn't make that claim. It presents evidence for differences in preference, which is that it does claim 4. "fails to acknowledge ways in which sex differences violate the narrative of female inferiority;" I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. 5. "assumes effective meritocracy" Nope. See above about preference vs. ability. In fact, does quite the opposite, by assuming preferences and not abilities are often a stronger influence. 6. "makes repugnant attacks on compassion and empathy" COMPLETELY WRONG. It references a plea for compassion instead of empathy, because empathy leads to bad outcomes, Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion by Paul Bloom: "Brilliantly argued, urgent and humane, AGAINST EMPATHY shows us that, when it comes to both major policy decisions and the choices we make in our everyday lives, limiting our impulse toward empathy is often the most compassionate choice we can make." -- https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29100194-against-empathy 7. "contains hints of racism" Huh? Where? 8. "paradoxically insists that authoritarianism be treated as a valid moral dimension" Huh? Where? 8a. "whilst firmly rejecting any diversity-motivated strategy that might remotely approach it" Huh? He says that diversity programs at Google aren't working and he wants to replace them with ones that he thinks have a better chance of working. 9. "ultimately advocates rejecting all morality insofar as it might compromise the interests of a group." Huh? He thinks the current programs are immoral and ineffective and makes a moral argument for replacing them. So complete and utter BS. And of course there are quite a few scientists who completely agree with him: http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/ http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU And more. And unlike here, they don't cite pop-sci books as evidence.
- mcguire 9y ago
  http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/ http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... There, we find * Lee Jussim, whose blog posts on similar issues have been quoted about as many times as Suzanne Sadedin's Quora answer. * David P Schmitt, who writes, "But it is not clear to me how such sex differences are relevant to the Google workplace. And even if sex differences in negative emotionality were relevant to occupational performance..., the size of these negative emotion sex differences is not very large (typically, ranging between “small” to “moderate” in statistical effect size terminology; accounting for less than 10% of the variance). So, using someone’s biological sex to essentialize an entire group of people’s personality would be like operating with an axe. Not precise enough to do much good, probably will cause a lot of harm. Moreover, men are more emotional than women in certain ways, too. Sex differences in emotion depend on the type of emotion, how it is measured, where it is expressed, when it is expressed, and lots of other contextual factors. "As to sex differences in mate preferences and status-seeking, these topics also have been heavily researched across cultures.... Again, though, most of these sex differences are moderate in size and in my view are unlikely to be all that relevant to the Google workplace.... Sex differences in occupational interests, personal values, and certain cognitive abilities are a bit larger in size..., but most psychological sex differences are only small to moderate in size, and rather than grouping men and women into dichotomous groups, I think sex and sex differences are best thought of scientifically as multidimensional dials, anyway.... "Now, treating people as dichotomous sexes is exactly what many affirmative action policies do. As this is not my area of expertise, I can only offer my non-expert opinion on this issue, which is this: There have been (and likely will continue to be) many socio-structural barriers to women working in technological jobs. These include culturally-embedded gender stereotypes, biased socialization practices, in some cultures explicit employment discrimination, and a certain degree of masculinization of technological workplaces. Within this sea of gender bias, should Google use various practices...to especially encourage capable women of joining (and enjoying) the Google workplace? I vote yes. At the same time, should we be able to openly discuss and be informed by some of the real psychological sex differences that might account for variation in men’s and women’s workplace performance? In the right context, I vote yes to that, too." * Geoffrey Miller, who seems to fundamentally miss the point: "So, psychological interchangeability makes diversity meaningless. But psychological differences make equal outcomes impossible. Equality or diversity. You can’t have both. "Weirdly, the same people who advocate for equality of outcome in every aspect of corporate life, also tend to advocate for diversity in every aspect of corporate life. They don’t even see the fundamentally irreconcilable assumptions behind this ‘equality and diversity’ dogma." (I'll just point out that Google has essentially interviewed its way through the entire cadre of computer science graduates from the last couple of decades. The idea that it may want to increase the size of its candidate pool makes a certain amount of business sense on its own.) * Debra W Soh, who I am having a bit of trouble understanding: "Within the field of neuroscience, sex differences between women and men—when it comes to brain structure and function and associated differences in personality and occupational preferences—are understood to be true, because the evidence for them (thousands of studies) is strong. This is not information that’s considered controversial or up for debate; if you tried to argue otherwise, or for purely social influences, you’d be laughed at. "Sex researchers recognize that these differences are not inherently supportive of sexism or stratifying opportunities based on sex. It is only because a group of individuals have chosen to interpret them that way, and to subsequently deny the science around them, that we have to have this conversation at a public level." (The group of individuals who have chosen to interpret sex differences as "inherently supportive of sexism or stratifying opportunities based on sex" is quite large, really.) Thanks for the link!
zygga 9y ago
Yes, most professors of the subject matter who have expressed their opinions agree: http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/ http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... The link you provided is no exception, as the writer is not a professor; while that's obviously an arbitrary distinction, I have to draw the line somewhere. Also, it's incredibly you seem to equate the people supporting Damore with the person himself.