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Environmental problems seem intimidating to me because by their very nature they require so much collaboration. My ability to live in a green way is more or les

by apozem 9y ago

Environmental problems seem intimidating to me because by their very nature they require so much collaboration. My ability to live in a green way is more or less irrelevant to the planet- what matters is whether I can convince large groups of people or policymakers to do the same. Getting everyone on this page seems challenging.

emj 9y ago
Everyone has to try to live green, and we should admire and strive to surpass the ones who take it to an extreme. We know from statistics and economics that the rest of the world will want the same standard of living as the west, and that they will reach there at somepoint. There for it's very important to deprioritize things that are inherently not green in our culture and make green living a status thing. Transportation, food, clothing, communication and work are all things that has to be reconsidered to be green.
fpgaminer 9y ago
> My ability to live in a green way is more or less irrelevant to the planet I noticed something one day. I had recently built a home gym and gave some friends a tour of it. The next week I hear that they're now working out and going to their local gym. That moment made me realize the positive effect our actions can have on others. It'll be the same with living green. Just by doing it, you are convincing other people that it's possible and that they should give it a try. My home is now 100% powered by solar (just got the Tesla batteries installed a few days ago). It cost less than a kitchen remodel, will be paid off in 10 years, is 100% off-grid 100% of the year, and we've sacrificed no amenities (still got the A/C going comfortably :) ). I'm one small fish in the pond, but my house is now a blaring advertisement for a greener future.
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  There's been some research that suggests neighbours with solar is a big predictor for who gets solar next, which backs this up. And in general, the theory of "social proof" suggests people like to follow the crowd in lots of ways.
  - ams6110 9y ago
    Well, that's the reason we have so many people driving huge SUVs too.
- brianwawok 9y ago
  Did you literally cut the utility wire to be able to proclaim off grid on hacker news, or are you grid neutral and still keep the connection around for emergencies? If you did cut i am curious the plan for say a very cloudy 7 days.
  - photojosh 9y ago
    I've not made the jump (indeed, don't have solar at all) since we don't own our house. But I briefly looked into the solution here, and a suitable gas generator is ~$5k. Would be expensive to run, sure, but very quickly cheaper to have it on standby than stay connected to the grid.
    - sliverstorm 9y ago
      How so? At least in our area, the fixed portion of the electric bill is only a few dollars. And, hell, I imagine I could cancel my service and pay nothing, connected or no. (And the grid is vital to a future of country-wide renewable power IMO, so I'm not personally eager to undermine it)
      - fencepost 9y ago
        Some of this will depend on what kind of regulation exists/has been purchased in your area. If you're not dumping excess power back to the grid it should just be a low usage connection, but in some places I believe if you have solar things get more complicated no matter your connection type.
- prawn 9y ago
  Further, I imagine any even small effort that is noticed can contribute positively. Things like: "We've started timing our showers." "We do Meat-Free Mondays. It's easy and cheaper." "I've got into xeriscaping recently." There are a number of things that are generally cheaper, not much effort and probably interesting to undertake.
notgood 9y ago
That's the problem, you aren't going to convince any important amount of people; neither is me or everyone else who thinks the same way; so then we should focus into a more long-term solution, meaning kids, or more specifically: schools. Every school (middle and high) should have at least 1 daily hour about how we are destroying the planet and how to stop its destruction; with less focus on "love the trees" and more focus on "we would die if the planet didn't have trees; so take care of them", and the chemical composition of non-renewable compounds and its practical effects over health, drought, etc. But this is not going to start with public schools, because that would mean convincing policymakers and we established that doesn't work well; so if its starts somewhere its going to be private schools; funded by people interested in making the world greener.
- Steeeve 9y ago
  > Every school (middle and high) should have at least 1 daily hour about how we are destroying the planet and how to stop its destruction; with less focus on "love the trees" and more focus on "we would die if the planet didn't have trees; so take care of them", and the chemical composition of non-renewable compounds and its practical effects over health, drought, etc. It's disturbing to me that anybody thinks fear mongering and brain washing is an acceptable solution if they think the end goal is a worthy cause. Do a little bit of soul searching and research before you decide to attack the minds of an entire generation because you read an activist pamphlet that affected you.
  - notgood 9y ago
    So if I tell you an avalanche is coming to kill you (and its true) is that fear mongering? Does it make me a "fear monguerer" to tell you that "you should run for your life" because well... you should run for your life? Or it's not fear mongering just because its a short term (AKA urgent) danger? About the brain washing thing; I also think such school should dedicate some hours to produce a more skeptic/rational society, skeptic of authority (religion/goverment et all) and of course skeptic of the schooling itself. "attack the minds of an entire generation"... as oppose to what? The free minds that we have now that voted for Trump? The free minds that pledge loyalty to a flag every morning but none to humanity? A free mind is the one who understands its world better, even the "fearsome" parts. By the way asking me to do "inner soul searching" is the lowest kind of ad hominem, because its not even a rational one (e.g you belong to X political party so your opinion doesn't count) but an emotional one (e.g your soul is rotten and therefore you have rotten opinions).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wolfgke 9y ago
> My ability to live in a green way is more or less irrelevant to the planet- what matters is whether I can convince large groups of people or policymakers to do the same. Getting everyone on this page seems challenging. A strong sign that there exist too many people on earth. Better strongly decrease the birth rate.
- justin66 9y ago
  Collective action problems exist regardless of the size of the population.
sliverstorm 9y ago
Not without precedent. Many of the great problems of human history are this way. Government, for starters.

by apozem 9y ago

emj 9y ago

Everyone has to try to live green, and we should admire and strive to surpass the ones who take it to an extreme. We know from statistics and economics that the rest of the world will want the same standard of living as the west, and that they will reach there at somepoint. There for it's very important to deprioritize things that are inherently not green in our culture and make green living a status thing. Transportation, food, clothing, communication and work are all things that has to be reconsidered to be green.

fpgaminer 9y ago

> My ability to live in a green way is more or less irrelevant to the planet I noticed something one day. I had recently built a home gym and gave some friends a tour of it. The next week I hear that they're now working out and going to their local gym. That moment made me realize the positive effect our actions can have on others. It'll be the same with living green. Just by doing it, you are convincing other people that it's possible and that they should give it a try. My home is now 100% powered by solar (just got the Tesla batteries installed a few days ago). It cost less than a kitchen remodel, will be paid off in 10 years, is 100% off-grid 100% of the year, and we've sacrificed no amenities (still got the A/C going comfortably :) ). I'm one small fish in the pond, but my house is now a blaring advertisement for a greener future.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago
There's been some research that suggests neighbours with solar is a big predictor for who gets solar next, which backs this up. And in general, the theory of "social proof" suggests people like to follow the crowd in lots of ways.
- ams6110 9y ago
  Well, that's the reason we have so many people driving huge SUVs too.
brianwawok 9y ago
Did you literally cut the utility wire to be able to proclaim off grid on hacker news, or are you grid neutral and still keep the connection around for emergencies? If you did cut i am curious the plan for say a very cloudy 7 days.
- photojosh 9y ago
  I've not made the jump (indeed, don't have solar at all) since we don't own our house. But I briefly looked into the solution here, and a suitable gas generator is ~$5k. Would be expensive to run, sure, but very quickly cheaper to have it on standby than stay connected to the grid.
  - sliverstorm 9y ago
    How so? At least in our area, the fixed portion of the electric bill is only a few dollars. And, hell, I imagine I could cancel my service and pay nothing, connected or no. (And the grid is vital to a future of country-wide renewable power IMO, so I'm not personally eager to undermine it)
    - fencepost 9y ago
      Some of this will depend on what kind of regulation exists/has been purchased in your area. If you're not dumping excess power back to the grid it should just be a low usage connection, but in some places I believe if you have solar things get more complicated no matter your connection type.
prawn 9y ago
Further, I imagine any even small effort that is noticed can contribute positively. Things like: "We've started timing our showers." "We do Meat-Free Mondays. It's easy and cheaper." "I've got into xeriscaping recently." There are a number of things that are generally cheaper, not much effort and probably interesting to undertake.

notgood 9y ago

That's the problem, you aren't going to convince any important amount of people; neither is me or everyone else who thinks the same way; so then we should focus into a more long-term solution, meaning kids, or more specifically: schools. Every school (middle and high) should have at least 1 daily hour about how we are destroying the planet and how to stop its destruction; with less focus on "love the trees" and more focus on "we would die if the planet didn't have trees; so take care of them", and the chemical composition of non-renewable compounds and its practical effects over health, drought, etc. But this is not going to start with public schools, because that would mean convincing policymakers and we established that doesn't work well; so if its starts somewhere its going to be private schools; funded by people interested in making the world greener.

Steeeve 9y ago
> Every school (middle and high) should have at least 1 daily hour about how we are destroying the planet and how to stop its destruction; with less focus on "love the trees" and more focus on "we would die if the planet didn't have trees; so take care of them", and the chemical composition of non-renewable compounds and its practical effects over health, drought, etc. It's disturbing to me that anybody thinks fear mongering and brain washing is an acceptable solution if they think the end goal is a worthy cause. Do a little bit of soul searching and research before you decide to attack the minds of an entire generation because you read an activist pamphlet that affected you.
- notgood 9y ago
  So if I tell you an avalanche is coming to kill you (and its true) is that fear mongering? Does it make me a "fear monguerer" to tell you that "you should run for your life" because well... you should run for your life? Or it's not fear mongering just because its a short term (AKA urgent) danger? About the brain washing thing; I also think such school should dedicate some hours to produce a more skeptic/rational society, skeptic of authority (religion/goverment et all) and of course skeptic of the schooling itself. "attack the minds of an entire generation"... as oppose to what? The free minds that we have now that voted for Trump? The free minds that pledge loyalty to a flag every morning but none to humanity? A free mind is the one who understands its world better, even the "fearsome" parts. By the way asking me to do "inner soul searching" is the lowest kind of ad hominem, because its not even a rational one (e.g you belong to X political party so your opinion doesn't count) but an emotional one (e.g your soul is rotten and therefore you have rotten opinions).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

wolfgke 9y ago

> My ability to live in a green way is more or less irrelevant to the planet- what matters is whether I can convince large groups of people or policymakers to do the same. Getting everyone on this page seems challenging. A strong sign that there exist too many people on earth. Better strongly decrease the birth rate.

justin66 9y ago
Collective action problems exist regardless of the size of the population.

sliverstorm 9y ago

Not without precedent. Many of the great problems of human history are this way. Government, for starters.