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> American police > European police > It's not something intrinsic to the nature of police Perhaps it's something intrinsic to the nature of police inside a

by jMyles 9y ago

> American police > European police > It's not something intrinsic to the nature of police Perhaps it's something intrinsic to the nature of police inside a hegemonic or imperial regime where the stakes of meaningful political upheaval are much higher (and the price of a frightened populous lower). edit: Curious about the downvotes: is it a controversial assertion that police act differently in the context of empire?

revmoo 9y ago
Lol. Good god, no.
mitochondrion 9y ago
Besides Donald Trump, there isn't and hasn't been even the slightest possibility of a meaningful [word used neutrally] political upheaval, and if Mueller gets him like he should, there never will be again. The prime differences between European and American police are: 1) structural differences in that American police forces are semi-atonomous entities with poor command-control response down the chain (federal, state, county, city, town) whereas European police are basically all federal employees subject directly to central command and monitored as such, and 2) American police have a much longer history of dealing with, and adapting their policies to the governance of, high-violence subpopulations like (southern) Italians, the Irish, and Africans.
- jMyles 9y ago
  > Besides Donald Trump, there isn't and hasn't been even the slightest possibility of a meaningful [word used neutrally] political upheaval Be reminded that we had a revolution less than two and a half centuries ago. And a very tumultuous last few decades. I think that MLK represented a very real possibility of meaningful political upheaval. > 2) American police have a much longer history of dealing with, and adapting their policies to the governance of, high-violence subpopulations like (southern) Italians, the Irish, and Africans. This is obviously true. The current character of professional, paramilitary police in the USA is traceable in no small part to slave patrols. Another difference is that the command structure of American police is different even than other common law countries - police (as distinct from sheriffs) are ranked in a paramilitary totem rather than a constabulary structure, have wide discretion in contrary to Peelianism, and in some cases are afforded greater arrest powers than the citizenry at large.
  - mitochondrion 9y ago
    > Be reminded that we had a revolution less than two and a half centuries ago. Sure. By landlords and merchant interests. In short, people like James Madison, as quoted in a comment below. "In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority.” Economically, Trump is a lot more like those "second sons" of English aristocracy than he is to the modern-day, progressive elites from whom he’s trying to wrest control. > And a very tumultuous last few decades. I think that MLK represented a very real possibility of meaningful political upheaval. You evidently haven’t looked into the origins of the NAACP. Who do you think backed the Rosa Parks court case and all that? There were a bunch of government grants, as well. As always and forever, the question is: where did the money come from? > police (as distinct from sheriffs) are ranked in a paramilitary totem rather than a constabulary structure, have wide discretion in contrary to Peelianism, and in some cases are afforded greater arrest powers than the citizenry at large I’m not quite sure what Peelianism is, but otherwise that’s an excellent point. There’s also, now that I think about it, the fact that becoming a police officer is quite often a “retirement” job for ex-soldier veterans, meaning that simply by virtue of their presence they bring military training and military attitudes developed and honed in their time in some sandy, godforsaken Middle Eastern country somewhere back here to civilization. And that’s even if they’re otherwise perfectly fine people who don’t mean to do it. Some programming, once learned, just doesn’t go away.
    - jMyles 9y ago
      > I’m not quite sure what Peelianism is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
      - mitochondrion 9y ago
        What a great ideal. I'd love to live in a society like that. It seems like it wouldn't work, though, if you're living side-by-side with people who just don't give a damn about police authority, like Italian mobsters or some such.
- pjc50 9y ago
  > meaningful [word used neutrally] political upheaval There's the potential for a lot more people to get killed, now the tactic of driving cars into crowds has been borrowed from Islamist terrorist by white supremacists. > governance of, high-violence subpopulations like (southern) Italians, the Irish, and Africans. There's your racism and colonialism right there. You could call it hegemonic and imperialist as well if you like.
  - mitochondrion 9y ago
    > There's your racism and colonialism right there. You could call it hegemonic and imperialist as well if you like. Look, man, I don't think it has anything to do with race. And if you like — but only if you like! — we can talk about why it is and what makes it so. But facts are facts, and I'm not going to stick my head and the sand and ignore them. You can if you like, it's a free country, but I'm not gonna. https://i.imgur.com/4GSCBOd.png https://i.imgur.com/4GSCBOd.png P.S. Check out Indonesia. Crazy, right?
    - pjc50 9y ago
      I'm just boggling at someone trying to describe the Irish as an "intrinsically violent subpopulation" in 2017.
      - mitochondrion 9y ago
        > American police have a much longer history of dealing with, and adapting their policies to the governance of, high-violence subpopulations like (southern) Italians, the Irish, and Africans. Do you suffer from poor reading comprehension? It's perfectly fine to admit it. Acceptance is the first step to recovery.
        pjc50 9y ago
        Do you suffer from racism? Why are you describing Irish as a high violence subpopulation? Does this apply to Irish in America or Irish in Ireland or what? Why is the Irishness relevant at all?
- tptacek 9y ago
  Italians (of any geographic orientation), the Irish, and "Africans" (Africa is a huge continent, not a country, and people from that continent cannot meaningfully be compared to people from small European countries) are not "high violence subpopulations".

by jMyles 9y ago

revmoo 9y ago

Lol. Good god, no.

mitochondrion 9y ago

Besides Donald Trump, there isn't and hasn't been even the slightest possibility of a meaningful [word used neutrally] political upheaval, and if Mueller gets him like he should, there never will be again. The prime differences between European and American police are: 1) structural differences in that American police forces are semi-atonomous entities with poor command-control response down the chain (federal, state, county, city, town) whereas European police are basically all federal employees subject directly to central command and monitored as such, and 2) American police have a much longer history of dealing with, and adapting their policies to the governance of, high-violence subpopulations like (southern) Italians, the Irish, and Africans.

jMyles 9y ago
> Besides Donald Trump, there isn't and hasn't been even the slightest possibility of a meaningful [word used neutrally] political upheaval Be reminded that we had a revolution less than two and a half centuries ago. And a very tumultuous last few decades. I think that MLK represented a very real possibility of meaningful political upheaval. > 2) American police have a much longer history of dealing with, and adapting their policies to the governance of, high-violence subpopulations like (southern) Italians, the Irish, and Africans. This is obviously true. The current character of professional, paramilitary police in the USA is traceable in no small part to slave patrols. Another difference is that the command structure of American police is different even than other common law countries - police (as distinct from sheriffs) are ranked in a paramilitary totem rather than a constabulary structure, have wide discretion in contrary to Peelianism, and in some cases are afforded greater arrest powers than the citizenry at large.
- mitochondrion 9y ago
  > Be reminded that we had a revolution less than two and a half centuries ago. Sure. By landlords and merchant interests. In short, people like James Madison, as quoted in a comment below. "In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority.” Economically, Trump is a lot more like those "second sons" of English aristocracy than he is to the modern-day, progressive elites from whom he’s trying to wrest control. > And a very tumultuous last few decades. I think that MLK represented a very real possibility of meaningful political upheaval. You evidently haven’t looked into the origins of the NAACP. Who do you think backed the Rosa Parks court case and all that? There were a bunch of government grants, as well. As always and forever, the question is: where did the money come from? > police (as distinct from sheriffs) are ranked in a paramilitary totem rather than a constabulary structure, have wide discretion in contrary to Peelianism, and in some cases are afforded greater arrest powers than the citizenry at large I’m not quite sure what Peelianism is, but otherwise that’s an excellent point. There’s also, now that I think about it, the fact that becoming a police officer is quite often a “retirement” job for ex-soldier veterans, meaning that simply by virtue of their presence they bring military training and military attitudes developed and honed in their time in some sandy, godforsaken Middle Eastern country somewhere back here to civilization. And that’s even if they’re otherwise perfectly fine people who don’t mean to do it. Some programming, once learned, just doesn’t go away.
  - jMyles 9y ago
    > I’m not quite sure what Peelianism is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
    - mitochondrion 9y ago
      What a great ideal. I'd love to live in a society like that. It seems like it wouldn't work, though, if you're living side-by-side with people who just don't give a damn about police authority, like Italian mobsters or some such.
pjc50 9y ago
> meaningful [word used neutrally] political upheaval There's the potential for a lot more people to get killed, now the tactic of driving cars into crowds has been borrowed from Islamist terrorist by white supremacists. > governance of, high-violence subpopulations like (southern) Italians, the Irish, and Africans. There's your racism and colonialism right there. You could call it hegemonic and imperialist as well if you like.
- mitochondrion 9y ago
  > There's your racism and colonialism right there. You could call it hegemonic and imperialist as well if you like. Look, man, I don't think it has anything to do with race. And if you like — but only if you like! — we can talk about why it is and what makes it so. But facts are facts, and I'm not going to stick my head and the sand and ignore them. You can if you like, it's a free country, but I'm not gonna. https://i.imgur.com/4GSCBOd.png https://i.imgur.com/4GSCBOd.png P.S. Check out Indonesia. Crazy, right?
  - pjc50 9y ago
    I'm just boggling at someone trying to describe the Irish as an "intrinsically violent subpopulation" in 2017.
    - mitochondrion 9y ago
      > American police have a much longer history of dealing with, and adapting their policies to the governance of, high-violence subpopulations like (southern) Italians, the Irish, and Africans. Do you suffer from poor reading comprehension? It's perfectly fine to admit it. Acceptance is the first step to recovery.
      - pjc50 9y ago
        Do you suffer from racism? Why are you describing Irish as a high violence subpopulation? Does this apply to Irish in America or Irish in Ireland or what? Why is the Irishness relevant at all?
tptacek 9y ago
Italians (of any geographic orientation), the Irish, and "Africans" (Africa is a huge continent, not a country, and people from that continent cannot meaningfully be compared to people from small European countries) are not "high violence subpopulations".