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I speak almost exclusively my non native language (English) and over time it has become a second nature but while everyone around me congratulates me for my flu

I speak almost exclusively my non native language (English) and over time it has become a second nature but while everyone around me congratulates me for my fluency and vocabulary, I KNOW I'm not as nimble and witty in English as in my second language. Having an intellectual argument is exhausting in the same way swimming with a tshirt on is harder than just swimming naked. Words come from a different place in my brain, I can just feel it, and connections sometimes are made that I cannot fully express. Seems like cause-effect logic is able to form itself in my mind but then gets lost as I try to translate it to English. It's very frustrating and I feel that has partly affected my ability to be convincing.

heavenlyblue 9y ago
Frankly when I first moved to the UK (~7 years ago) I tried to stay way closer to the classical archetypes of the society that are implied from the literature/movies I had seen; than I do now (let's call them the "visible" traits). I then realised that while some of the stylistic mistakes I make when I try to be more "myself" in the language are a function of my own personality and not the lack of knowledge of the language (for example, I would be making the same stylistic mistake in Russian just as much as I would be making the same one in English). Over time you also tend to note that most of the native speakers don't really know their language beyond the context in which they were born. So you do sound stylistically weird to them, but not due to you not knowing the language. Later on you find people that could have found a way better recognition in your own country than you yourself if they were to move there. So I would not go as far as saying that it's "more frustrating" to not speak your own language. Culture is quite a non-linear concept imo. BTW: I was born in Lithuania to Russian parents. So to be frank the definition of the culture I belong to has always been quite vague for me.
- gerdesj 9y ago
  "Over time you also tend to note that most of the native speakers don't really know their language beyond the context in which they were born. So you do sound stylistically weird to them, but not due to you not knowing the language." Fair enough but you do have to also allow for the fact that there are many strata to any language. There is no such thing as a regular en_GB. I'm English as in I live in England but I make use of a weird amalgam of dialects as well as regular "English". Perhaps that is the thing - a regular bedrock, which when deviated from marks out a non native speaker. When I say bedrock, I mean shared knowledge about the way things are done in a particular place. For example you should be familiar with how to deal with weather conversations. Britons are not really fixated about the weather (OK we are!) but it is an easy way to spark up a conversation with a stranger or break the ice when conversation is faltering. The rules are very simple: mention the weather eg "will this rain ever stop" or "lovely morning" and then wait for the response and follow the formula. It is quite acceptable to respond with something like "yes", "typical", "t" and simply move on but friendly contact has been made. However if you have time to kill or whatever you will follow the formula. Now the full formula is quite involved but is known by every single Briton, without exception. It also works in Ireland (Eire) in its entirety (tested by me). The weather thing is quite well known about but there are quite a few other cultural oddities around here that you might be oblivious to. Does this mean anything to you: "fork handles"/"four candles"? Good skills on moving a fair few 100 miles from home, taking on a foreign language and integrating into a foreign culture. Are you really frank? He owes me £20.
  - heavenlyblue 9y ago
    Oh yes, absolutely. "The bedrock" is what defines the culture. But it's quite a vague predictor for whether you're going to build a good business together; or whether your jokes about other cultures or sex would be perceived as racist, ironic or simply a matter of pragmatism; or what is acceptable as part of your personal life. Honestly I find the perceived notion of having a shared culture is detrimental to actually realising that you disagree on many deeper important issues. For example, many of my current middle-class co-workers were quite surprised by the results of the Brexit referendum, while it wasn't that clear to me as I've spend a fair amount of time in Leeds hanging out with the working class or working for a few supposedly full of middle-class media agencies. They didn't tend to be too humble to share what they actually thought of being a part of the EU, while they were quite humble at sharing this with their friends (shy tories, etc.?). Besides, I would never agree I know British culture in it's full depth. It's funny you mentioned "fork handles"/"four candles" - which is exactly the thing a friend of mine said this weekend. I just Googled it. A culture enthusiast would follow this up with a binge of the show. But this still does not make a foreign speaker seem more genuine if he suddenly starts speaking northern accent, uses common grammatical variations (I was/I were) or borrows from a local vocabulary. Neither does it do any good for someone northern to come to London and try to negotiate a contract with someone of South African descent without any appreciation for a more common pronunciation or cultural grounds (although well - aren't they both practically British?).
johnchristopher 9y ago
Indeed, the way one phrases arguments has meaning and it is a second higher-level language on top of the grammatical rules and the vocabulary that makes up a language. (plus the non-verbal, plus the social settings, plus the other parties choice of words and expressions, etc.).
boondaburrah 9y ago
That reminds me of a commmon experience I have with asperger's. English is my native language, and yet I regularly have the issue with words not actually coming from where my thoughts are generated, and I can't always express the thought I've had as quickly and fully as I would like. More recently, I've been taking a foreign language, and it feels much the same only more extreme. Since I've actually lived in the country where thins language is spoken, my words come at a reasonable speed now and feel automatic. The gap between thought and words is larger than ever. (2 years into the foreign language vs. a lifetime with my native should do that though) I wonder if people living with Asperger's or similar disorders that delay development of language result in every language being your second. :P
kilroy123 9y ago
My girlfriend says the same thing. She speaks 3 languages daily and even though her English is very good, she's weakest at it. She often tells me she can't really express herself or joke with me. Not the way she would or could in her native language.
sandov 9y ago
The same thing happens to me, it has stopped me from getting into arguments on the Internet, because I know that I won't be able to express my thoughts clearly enough to convince anyone.
- esfandia 9y ago
  I started frequenting online forums precisely to help we practice expressing my thoughts in English. I try not to get into arguments though. :)
darklajid 9y ago
You expressed what I feel (I'm in Singapore, speaking English, German as native language) so well and in a way that makes me question your point in the first place.. :) More seriously though: I get along. I can talk and apart from having a different accent than everyone around me (because over here, _everyone_ has a special accent) there's not a huge problem. But I feel clumsy. Restricted. I wonder if this will slowly become less of a problem in the future, but so far I feel like a dim-witted version of me in most conversations. For me, two languages are hard. I envy everyone that grew up learning more than one language or generally feeling comfortable using more than a single language in general.

heavenlyblue 9y ago

Frankly when I first moved to the UK (~7 years ago) I tried to stay way closer to the classical archetypes of the society that are implied from the literature/movies I had seen; than I do now (let's call them the "visible" traits). I then realised that while some of the stylistic mistakes I make when I try to be more "myself" in the language are a function of my own personality and not the lack of knowledge of the language (for example, I would be making the same stylistic mistake in Russian just as much as I would be making the same one in English). Over time you also tend to note that most of the native speakers don't really know their language beyond the context in which they were born. So you do sound stylistically weird to them, but not due to you not knowing the language. Later on you find people that could have found a way better recognition in your own country than you yourself if they were to move there. So I would not go as far as saying that it's "more frustrating" to not speak your own language. Culture is quite a non-linear concept imo. BTW: I was born in Lithuania to Russian parents. So to be frank the definition of the culture I belong to has always been quite vague for me.

gerdesj 9y ago
"Over time you also tend to note that most of the native speakers don't really know their language beyond the context in which they were born. So you do sound stylistically weird to them, but not due to you not knowing the language." Fair enough but you do have to also allow for the fact that there are many strata to any language. There is no such thing as a regular en_GB. I'm English as in I live in England but I make use of a weird amalgam of dialects as well as regular "English". Perhaps that is the thing - a regular bedrock, which when deviated from marks out a non native speaker. When I say bedrock, I mean shared knowledge about the way things are done in a particular place. For example you should be familiar with how to deal with weather conversations. Britons are not really fixated about the weather (OK we are!) but it is an easy way to spark up a conversation with a stranger or break the ice when conversation is faltering. The rules are very simple: mention the weather eg "will this rain ever stop" or "lovely morning" and then wait for the response and follow the formula. It is quite acceptable to respond with something like "yes", "typical", "t" and simply move on but friendly contact has been made. However if you have time to kill or whatever you will follow the formula. Now the full formula is quite involved but is known by every single Briton, without exception. It also works in Ireland (Eire) in its entirety (tested by me). The weather thing is quite well known about but there are quite a few other cultural oddities around here that you might be oblivious to. Does this mean anything to you: "fork handles"/"four candles"? Good skills on moving a fair few 100 miles from home, taking on a foreign language and integrating into a foreign culture. Are you really frank? He owes me £20.
- heavenlyblue 9y ago
  Oh yes, absolutely. "The bedrock" is what defines the culture. But it's quite a vague predictor for whether you're going to build a good business together; or whether your jokes about other cultures or sex would be perceived as racist, ironic or simply a matter of pragmatism; or what is acceptable as part of your personal life. Honestly I find the perceived notion of having a shared culture is detrimental to actually realising that you disagree on many deeper important issues. For example, many of my current middle-class co-workers were quite surprised by the results of the Brexit referendum, while it wasn't that clear to me as I've spend a fair amount of time in Leeds hanging out with the working class or working for a few supposedly full of middle-class media agencies. They didn't tend to be too humble to share what they actually thought of being a part of the EU, while they were quite humble at sharing this with their friends (shy tories, etc.?). Besides, I would never agree I know British culture in it's full depth. It's funny you mentioned "fork handles"/"four candles" - which is exactly the thing a friend of mine said this weekend. I just Googled it. A culture enthusiast would follow this up with a binge of the show. But this still does not make a foreign speaker seem more genuine if he suddenly starts speaking northern accent, uses common grammatical variations (I was/I were) or borrows from a local vocabulary. Neither does it do any good for someone northern to come to London and try to negotiate a contract with someone of South African descent without any appreciation for a more common pronunciation or cultural grounds (although well - aren't they both practically British?).

johnchristopher 9y ago

Indeed, the way one phrases arguments has meaning and it is a second higher-level language on top of the grammatical rules and the vocabulary that makes up a language. (plus the non-verbal, plus the social settings, plus the other parties choice of words and expressions, etc.).

boondaburrah 9y ago

That reminds me of a commmon experience I have with asperger's. English is my native language, and yet I regularly have the issue with words not actually coming from where my thoughts are generated, and I can't always express the thought I've had as quickly and fully as I would like. More recently, I've been taking a foreign language, and it feels much the same only more extreme. Since I've actually lived in the country where thins language is spoken, my words come at a reasonable speed now and feel automatic. The gap between thought and words is larger than ever. (2 years into the foreign language vs. a lifetime with my native should do that though) I wonder if people living with Asperger's or similar disorders that delay development of language result in every language being your second. :P

kilroy123 9y ago

My girlfriend says the same thing. She speaks 3 languages daily and even though her English is very good, she's weakest at it. She often tells me she can't really express herself or joke with me. Not the way she would or could in her native language.

sandov 9y ago

The same thing happens to me, it has stopped me from getting into arguments on the Internet, because I know that I won't be able to express my thoughts clearly enough to convince anyone.

esfandia 9y ago
I started frequenting online forums precisely to help we practice expressing my thoughts in English. I try not to get into arguments though. :)

darklajid 9y ago

You expressed what I feel (I'm in Singapore, speaking English, German as native language) so well and in a way that makes me question your point in the first place.. :) More seriously though: I get along. I can talk and apart from having a different accent than everyone around me (because over here, _everyone_ has a special accent) there's not a huge problem. But I feel clumsy. Restricted. I wonder if this will slowly become less of a problem in the future, but so far I feel like a dim-witted version of me in most conversations. For me, two languages are hard. I envy everyone that grew up learning more than one language or generally feeling comfortable using more than a single language in general.