4 ms·

Debunked: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 "Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflav

Debunked: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 "Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis."

WillPostForFood 9y ago
Citing one study (meta analysis or not) and claiming debunked is not a serious argument, especially with respect to diet where there is data all over the place. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2721724/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2721724/ There was an inverse association between soy food intake and sperm concentration that remained significant after accounting for age, abstinence time, body mass index, caffeine and alcohol intake and smoking. In the multivariate-adjusted analyses, men in the highest category of soy food intake had 41 million sperm/ml less than men who did not consume soy foods.
- cropsieboss 9y ago
  Wrong measure. What if men had lower concentration of sperm but higher volume of the ejaculate? Soy is known to have benefits on prostate and much of the volume of sperm comes from prostate liquid.
  - mickronome 9y ago
    Possibly wrong measure, and not the whole story in any case. The implicitly suggested volume measure might not be the wrong measure either since fertility depends on quite a few variables, several we don't even know about. These unknowns are actually a bit concerning on their own since fertility has been falling rapidly, at least in most of the western hemisphere, and the cause is unknown.
    - cropsieboss 9y ago
      Well, Asia does not seem to suffer yet soy is a significant part of their caloric intake.
      - brianwawok 9y ago
        Citation required? I doubt it is even 5%.
        cropsieboss 9y ago
        > Nevertheless, Americans as a whole still consume very little soy protein. Based on 2003 data from the UN Food and Agriculture Organization, per-capita soy protein consumption is less than 1 gram (g) per day in most European and North American countries, although certain subpopulations such as vegetarians, Asian immigrants, and infants fed soy-based formula consume more. The Japanese, on the other hand, consume an average 8.7 g of soy protein per day; Koreans, 6.2–9.6 g; Indonesians, 7.4 g; and the Chinese, 3.4 g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1480510/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1480510/ At least it's several times bigger than European and USA consumption. Citation required for what? The fact that they eat more soy? Demonizing soy is just a fad. Like demonizing meat or dairy. Most of USA and Europe eats female mammals like cows and chickens, are we going to make claims that female animal estrogen contained in that flesh makes men infertile? Seems like a much more probable cause than phytoestrogen from plants, not that I would be irresposible to make that argument without any evidence, as is the case for soy.
  - WillPostForFood 9y ago
    I'm not attacking soy, just the style of argument.

WillPostForFood 9y ago

Citing one study (meta analysis or not) and claiming debunked is not a serious argument, especially with respect to diet where there is data all over the place. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2721724/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2721724/ There was an inverse association between soy food intake and sperm concentration that remained significant after accounting for age, abstinence time, body mass index, caffeine and alcohol intake and smoking. In the multivariate-adjusted analyses, men in the highest category of soy food intake had 41 million sperm/ml less than men who did not consume soy foods.

cropsieboss 9y ago
Wrong measure. What if men had lower concentration of sperm but higher volume of the ejaculate? Soy is known to have benefits on prostate and much of the volume of sperm comes from prostate liquid.
- mickronome 9y ago
  Possibly wrong measure, and not the whole story in any case. The implicitly suggested volume measure might not be the wrong measure either since fertility depends on quite a few variables, several we don't even know about. These unknowns are actually a bit concerning on their own since fertility has been falling rapidly, at least in most of the western hemisphere, and the cause is unknown.
  - cropsieboss 9y ago
    Well, Asia does not seem to suffer yet soy is a significant part of their caloric intake.
    - brianwawok 9y ago
      Citation required? I doubt it is even 5%.
      - cropsieboss 9y ago
        > Nevertheless, Americans as a whole still consume very little soy protein. Based on 2003 data from the UN Food and Agriculture Organization, per-capita soy protein consumption is less than 1 gram (g) per day in most European and North American countries, although certain subpopulations such as vegetarians, Asian immigrants, and infants fed soy-based formula consume more. The Japanese, on the other hand, consume an average 8.7 g of soy protein per day; Koreans, 6.2–9.6 g; Indonesians, 7.4 g; and the Chinese, 3.4 g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1480510/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1480510/ At least it's several times bigger than European and USA consumption. Citation required for what? The fact that they eat more soy? Demonizing soy is just a fad. Like demonizing meat or dairy. Most of USA and Europe eats female mammals like cows and chickens, are we going to make claims that female animal estrogen contained in that flesh makes men infertile? Seems like a much more probable cause than phytoestrogen from plants, not that I would be irresposible to make that argument without any evidence, as is the case for soy.
- WillPostForFood 9y ago
  I'm not attacking soy, just the style of argument.