6 ms·

In this case, I think the egg (autoconf) arrived on the scene well after the chicken (idiotic, gratuitous incompatibilities).

by djmdjm 16y ago

davidw 16y ago
Isn't it a 90ies thing, when there were not just a few different Linux distributions, but several competing Unix systems? Solaris, IRIX, HPUX, AIX, Digital Unix, plus Linux, *BSD, and various and sundry other minor players.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  There still are several competing UNIX flavors: - bsd and derivates (including OS/X) - linux (64 and 32 bit sub-flavors) - QnX (though very different under the hood) And lots of others. So 'it's an 80's thing' but it will be very hard to get rid of, 'just a few different linux distributions' does not describe the situation accurately. It also isn't rare to find older boxes still chugging away quietly at some task in a corner somewhere running any one of those older operating systems and those sometimes need software compiled for them as well.
  - davidw 16y ago
    What I meant is that autoconf was created in the 1990ies.
- avar 16y ago
  Those systems are still around, and people are still porting software to them. For instance Git which is a fairly popular package created in 2005 runs on at least: Linux, GNU, GNU/Hurd, GNU/Linux, Tru64 UNIX, GNU/kFreeBSD, SCO UnixWare, SCO UNIX SV, Darwin, various versions of Solaris, Cygwin, *BSD, AIX, IRIX, IRIX64, HP-UX, Windows, MINGW. Older packages like Perl and Emacs compile on a much wider range of systems.
cperciva 16y ago
Absolutely. And I'd say that in the 90s autocrap was probably a net positive. But times have changed. Windows is now more compatible with Linux than a random pair of mid-90s UNIXes were with each other. Now that the major incompatibilities gone, all autocrap is doing is keeping the lesser incompatibilities around.
- avar 16y ago
  The Windows compilers are more capable than old 90s compilers. But random source code written for Linux is a lot more compatible as-is with AIX, HP-UX, IRIX and others than with Windows. Windows doesn't have forks (needs emulation via threads), second class support for things like symlinks, and isn't POSIX compatible (yes, I know you can get that as a separate install). Porting a Linux program to Windows is like porting it to Novell, or some random mainfram OS. Not another OS in the Unix family.
thyrsus 16y ago
Just yesterday I was trying to get the macutils package built (http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/utils/compress/macutils.tar.gz http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/utils/compress/macutils.tar...) and wishing they had used autoconf instead of ad hac #ifdef'ing for each arbitrary environment they had encountered - which never happened to be standard C. The package is apparently unmaintained, and if it weren't for tracking down the license provenances(!), I'd be tempted to apply some autoconf love. Varnish guy also left HP-UX off his list of still-kicking Unix implementations. The continuing exponential growth of computer use hides the fact for many that there are still an enormous number of "non-mainstream" systems still in essential use. Within the last couple weeks, someone on the autoconf list just asked for help supporting AS400. Kids these days. Sheesh. ;-)

In this case, I think the egg (autoconf) arrived on the scene well after the chicken (idiotic, gratuitous incompatibilities).

by djmdjm 16y ago

In this case, I think the egg (autoconf) arrived on the scene well after the chicken (idiotic, gratuitous incompatibilities).

davidw 16y ago

Isn't it a 90ies thing, when there were not just a few different Linux distributions, but several competing Unix systems? Solaris, IRIX, HPUX, AIX, Digital Unix, plus Linux, *BSD, and various and sundry other minor players.

jacquesm 16y ago
There still are several competing UNIX flavors: - bsd and derivates (including OS/X) - linux (64 and 32 bit sub-flavors) - QnX (though very different under the hood) And lots of others. So 'it's an 80's thing' but it will be very hard to get rid of, 'just a few different linux distributions' does not describe the situation accurately. It also isn't rare to find older boxes still chugging away quietly at some task in a corner somewhere running any one of those older operating systems and those sometimes need software compiled for them as well.
- davidw 16y ago
  What I meant is that autoconf was created in the 1990ies.
avar 16y ago
Those systems are still around, and people are still porting software to them. For instance Git which is a fairly popular package created in 2005 runs on at least: Linux, GNU, GNU/Hurd, GNU/Linux, Tru64 UNIX, GNU/kFreeBSD, SCO UnixWare, SCO UNIX SV, Darwin, various versions of Solaris, Cygwin, *BSD, AIX, IRIX, IRIX64, HP-UX, Windows, MINGW. Older packages like Perl and Emacs compile on a much wider range of systems.

cperciva 16y ago

Absolutely. And I'd say that in the 90s autocrap was probably a net positive. But times have changed. Windows is now more compatible with Linux than a random pair of mid-90s UNIXes were with each other. Now that the major incompatibilities gone, all autocrap is doing is keeping the lesser incompatibilities around.

avar 16y ago
The Windows compilers are more capable than old 90s compilers. But random source code written for Linux is a lot more compatible as-is with AIX, HP-UX, IRIX and others than with Windows. Windows doesn't have forks (needs emulation via threads), second class support for things like symlinks, and isn't POSIX compatible (yes, I know you can get that as a separate install). Porting a Linux program to Windows is like porting it to Novell, or some random mainfram OS. Not another OS in the Unix family.

thyrsus 16y ago

Just yesterday I was trying to get the macutils package built (http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/utils/compress/macutils.tar.gz http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/utils/compress/macutils.tar...) and wishing they had used autoconf instead of ad hac #ifdef'ing for each arbitrary environment they had encountered - which never happened to be standard C. The package is apparently unmaintained, and if it weren't for tracking down the license provenances(!), I'd be tempted to apply some autoconf love. Varnish guy also left HP-UX off his list of still-kicking Unix implementations. The continuing exponential growth of computer use hides the fact for many that there are still an enormous number of "non-mainstream" systems still in essential use. Within the last couple weeks, someone on the autoconf list just asked for help supporting AS400. Kids these days. Sheesh. ;-)