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By that standard it is impossible for any type system not to match the way we think: for example a programming language could be abstracted in terms of food, re

By that standard it is impossible for any type system not to match the way we think: for example a programming language could be abstracted in terms of food, recipes, and breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and express literally everything that way. Although by your standard our code would then match the way we think, clearly this is not a useful takeaway.

dom0 9y ago
You're not refuting the point he was making, because no one is writing code in such a language. > If writing is thinking, then object oriented code reflects the way we think because we write it The point is the huge majority of systems (by any metric; number of engineers, lines of code, budget, ...) are written in an OO style (regardless of whether the language actually supports OO; practically all bigger C projects use OO); and the majority of people are just fine with that and get started fairly easily with it. Hence it is reasonable to assume OO being a good fit to our own thinking processes. By comparison, very few people find learning FP easy, and most seasoned FP developers openly say that getting started and acquiring the mindset for FP is a difficult and long-winded process. Similarly, most people find reasoning about point-free programs (concatenative languages such as Forth) quite difficult.
- logicallee 9y ago
  (Yes, I misread the line you quoted as saying something different.) You also made your point very well, and all the facts you highlight support you and are good reason for me to doubt my conclusion regarding object oriented programming. I thought it's a terrible match for how people think about the world yet you give very strong reasons why I was wrong. (In other words you've convinced me.) Thank you.
- naasking 9y ago
  I actually don't think any of the points you've raised are valid or empirically supported at all. Most novices do not in fact find OO easy to learn, and most novices do not in fact find FP harder than OO to learn. What you are probably alluding to is the difficulty in learning a specific language, like Haskell. Haskell is not FP. Also, while most software projects use some kind of OO language these days, I don't know why in the world you'd think this somehow entails it fits our thinking. By all accounts, software defect rates aren't any better under OO than under procedural language paradigms. How does that make it intuitive? To make any kind of "reasonable" conclusion, you'd need a comparison against software written under other paradigms. Such studies have been done, and OO does not fare as well as other paradigms on many metrics.
brudgers 9y ago
That's not the idea I was trying to convey. I think any claim that any language (computer or ordinary or otherwise) captures the way people think independent of the use of that language is at least suspect [and for me probably false, but I could be wrong]. To me, it seems more likely that the flexibility of human cognition allows a person to think in terms of a programming language than any particular programming language expresses something important about the mechanics of human thought. Another way of putting it is that the claim that object oriented programming is ontologically different from other Turing complete languages seems less believable than ontological equivalence -- the Chicken [1] interpreter is written in JavaScript. http://torso.me/chicken http://torso.me/chicken
- logicallee 9y ago
  I'm afraid we disagree entirely. Before the existence of any computer language, humans talked, and thought: at various levels of rigor. Mathematical books were published for millennia. People thought, interpreted their world, argued with each other, and so forth. With the advent of computer languages, some of these have captured more of this independent thinking and abstraction, others capture less of it, while still others require their users to learn abstractions they were not used to. The idea that all of this falls in the last category, with no capturing of the way "people think independent of the use of that language" is totally false to me. Sorry.
  - brudgers 9y ago
    Mathematical books were published for millennia. Writing is thinking...etc.
    - logicallee 9y ago
      Can you be a bit more precise? I feel like we're talking past each other but perhaps have misunderstood each other.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]

dom0 9y ago

You're not refuting the point he was making, because no one is writing code in such a language. > If writing is thinking, then object oriented code reflects the way we think because we write it The point is the huge majority of systems (by any metric; number of engineers, lines of code, budget, ...) are written in an OO style (regardless of whether the language actually supports OO; practically all bigger C projects use OO); and the majority of people are just fine with that and get started fairly easily with it. Hence it is reasonable to assume OO being a good fit to our own thinking processes. By comparison, very few people find learning FP easy, and most seasoned FP developers openly say that getting started and acquiring the mindset for FP is a difficult and long-winded process. Similarly, most people find reasoning about point-free programs (concatenative languages such as Forth) quite difficult.

logicallee 9y ago
(Yes, I misread the line you quoted as saying something different.) You also made your point very well, and all the facts you highlight support you and are good reason for me to doubt my conclusion regarding object oriented programming. I thought it's a terrible match for how people think about the world yet you give very strong reasons why I was wrong. (In other words you've convinced me.) Thank you.
naasking 9y ago
I actually don't think any of the points you've raised are valid or empirically supported at all. Most novices do not in fact find OO easy to learn, and most novices do not in fact find FP harder than OO to learn. What you are probably alluding to is the difficulty in learning a specific language, like Haskell. Haskell is not FP. Also, while most software projects use some kind of OO language these days, I don't know why in the world you'd think this somehow entails it fits our thinking. By all accounts, software defect rates aren't any better under OO than under procedural language paradigms. How does that make it intuitive? To make any kind of "reasonable" conclusion, you'd need a comparison against software written under other paradigms. Such studies have been done, and OO does not fare as well as other paradigms on many metrics.

brudgers 9y ago

That's not the idea I was trying to convey. I think any claim that any language (computer or ordinary or otherwise) captures the way people think independent of the use of that language is at least suspect [and for me probably false, but I could be wrong]. To me, it seems more likely that the flexibility of human cognition allows a person to think in terms of a programming language than any particular programming language expresses something important about the mechanics of human thought. Another way of putting it is that the claim that object oriented programming is ontologically different from other Turing complete languages seems less believable than ontological equivalence -- the Chicken [1] interpreter is written in JavaScript. http://torso.me/chicken http://torso.me/chicken

logicallee 9y ago
I'm afraid we disagree entirely. Before the existence of any computer language, humans talked, and thought: at various levels of rigor. Mathematical books were published for millennia. People thought, interpreted their world, argued with each other, and so forth. With the advent of computer languages, some of these have captured more of this independent thinking and abstraction, others capture less of it, while still others require their users to learn abstractions they were not used to. The idea that all of this falls in the last category, with no capturing of the way "people think independent of the use of that language" is totally false to me. Sorry.
- brudgers 9y ago
  Mathematical books were published for millennia. Writing is thinking...etc.
  - logicallee 9y ago
    Can you be a bit more precise? I feel like we're talking past each other but perhaps have misunderstood each other.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]