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Biggest amateur-built sub sinks – owner is suspected of killing passenger
- kodis 9y agoThis sounds a bit suspicious, but I can't imagine what motive Masden would have for killing a journalist.
- userbinator 9y agoI think the headlines are a bit sensationalised. I can't imagine he directly killed her either; it's probably more likely he paniced when it started to sink and fled, shortly realised afterwards that he had a passenger, and tried to cover it up. I'm not saying he's innocent, but people in states of panic can do very irrational things.
- towb 9y agoThe woman was reported missing to the police early morning when she didn't come home/was heard from the night before, so she was reported missing hours before the sub sank.
- dmix 9y agoPolice are asking if witnesses saw her after 16:00. The submarine set sail 3hrs later around 19:00. It sank the next day at 11:00. That means she was probably last seen or heard from that afternoon a few hours before the sub launched.
- lillesvin 9y agoThere's an image floating about of her in the sub with Peter, so there's no doubt that she's been on the sub. Edit: Here: http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/kim-isabel-forsvundet-i-ubaadsdrama/6775956 http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/kim-isabel-forsvundet-i-ubaadsdra...
- eCa 9y agoHe's charged with involuntary manslaughter[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Madsen_(inventor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Madsen_(inventor)
- Grue3 9y agoThis story reminds me of Ted Kennedy [1], who somehow got off scot free after a similar incident. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident
- tyingq 9y agoMore information is out now. There was no body on the sub, and Madsen has changed his story about dropping her off[1]. The timeline[2] makes it odd that she would have been on the sub that long...she wasn't intending on a long overnight trip. Also, the eyewitness accounts of the sinking make it sound like the sinking was deliberate: "Kristian Isbak, who had responded to the Navy's call to help locate the ship on Friday, told The Associated Press he first spotted Madsen standing wearing his trademark military fatigues in the submarine's tower while it was still afloat. "He then climbed down inside the submarine and there was then some kind of air flow coming up and the submarine started to sink," Isbak said. "(He) came up again and stayed in the tower until water came into it" before swimming to a nearby boat as the submarine sank, he added." [3] [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-denmark-submarine-idUSKBN1AS0V2 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-denmark-submarine-idUSKBN... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15000076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15000076 [3] http://time.com/4898129/submarine-owner-detained-over-journalist-disappearance/ http://time.com/4898129/submarine-owner-detained-over-journa...
- workerIbe 9y agoDoes he have a "Captain Nemo" complex? Would allow for all kinds of fantastical plots.
- jacquesm 9y agoI'm pretty good at coming up with scenarios where he would have plenty of motive for killing her. This whole thing stinks, but any kind of limiting of the universe of possibilities will have to wait for evidence, which the sinking of the sub certainly didn't help preserve.
- scottmcdot 9y agoI don't really know anything about the people involved. What could be a motive?
- djmips 9y agoWe don't know so anything would be unfounded speculation at this point.
- interfixus 9y agoNo motive. Just an escalating situation. Madsen is known for his flaring temper. Speculation has plenty to feed on.
- tyingq 9y agoCould have been anything, including "not murder". Maybe, for example, an accidental death that Masden felt might not look accidental. All the way up to more nefarious motives. The FBI has some data on circumstances/motives here: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl12.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-... You can pretty quickly find a few that might be plausible.
- VLM 9y agoNo one so far has mentioned the interesting idea that he was trying to disappear himself. Check into who picked him up and why they were there, plus the dude's financial situation, has all of the money recently disappeared? His girlfriend disappears in a normal manner, well, normal for a disappearance, he disappears in outlandish style in a sub sinking, he was going to swim to a pre-prepped dinghy or some quiet boat anchored nearby and disappear from history (perhaps with a pile of money?) but whoopsie a passing boater not part of the plan at all, coincidentally saw him and "helped" him out by declaring an emergency and fishing him out... So much for that tragic disappearance and drowning and missing body. Now she's disappeared successfully on some tropical island retired wondering when he's gonna get there, or wondering if she should keep all the money (assuming any has disappeared at all, of course) or if she should come forward. The whole thing sounding like a hollywood movie plot means my speculation sounding like a movie plot isn't necessarily disqualifying. Its also worth pointing out that this is a "submarine story" only in the sense that the Reiser murder trial was about linux filesystem development.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- wutwutwutwut 9y agoNo one has mentioned it because you are just making it up. Why you think the journalist was his girlfriend btw?
- tyingq 9y agoThat does seem like a reach. There is a photo floating around that might be Kim Wall in the tower of the submarine o̶n̶ ̶F̶r̶i̶d̶a̶y̶,̶ ̶d̶u̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶d̶a̶y̶l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶h̶o̶u̶r̶s̶.̶.̶.̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶o̶d̶d̶.̶[1,2] That doesn't imply girlfriend though. Could also be that the "Friday" was a mistake and the picture is from Thursday. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-denmark-submarine-idUSKBN1AS0V2 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-denmark-submarine-idUSKBN... [2] http://www.skd.se/2017/08/12/madsen-nekas-forklara-sig-infor-pressen/ http://www.skd.se/2017/08/12/madsen-nekas-forklara-sig-infor... Edit: Photo was from Thursday, not Friday. Apparently the Reuters caption is wrong. http://www.zoox.se/submarine-inventor-charged-with-murder-of-swedish-journalist-kim-wall/ http://www.zoox.se/submarine-inventor-charged-with-murder-of...
- _delirium 9y agoGiven the fairly clear-cut factual dispute, I can't imagine this won't be resolved one way or another fairly soon. Madsen claims he dropped off the now-missing passenger at 10:30pm before going back out on the sub. Investigators suspect that he didn't, and she sank with the sub. Since the sub's been located, and in fairly shallow water, investigators should be able to determine whether there's a body inside it or not soon.
- loeg 9y agoReally shallow! 22 feet. That's within the range they let uncertified divers scuba at.
- ramses0 9y ago"Uncertified divers escorted by an experienced, certified diver / instructor and after a safety and equipment briefing." You probably meant "divers with a basic SCUBA certification" (open water, ~30ft depth and conditions similar to your previous dives)
- jetti 9y agoI am not certified and the three times I've been out we have done 40' max depth. 22' is definitely within range of somebody who took a 30 minute session and is out with an instructor.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoI think most Open Water Dive certifications are to a recommended depth of about 18 metres / 60 feet, and Advanced Open Water Dive certificates are to a depth of about 30 metres / 100 feet.[1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Open_Water_Diver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Open_Water_Diver
- ramses0 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diver_certification#European_and_ISO_standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diver_certification#European_a... 12m and 20m are basic recommendations listed here. I seem to remember 30ft and 100ft (plus following tables / computers) as the recommended limits.
- mongol 9y agoThis is one of the weirdest news stories lately.
- ajross 9y agoThere are almost 2000 nazis holding a protest in Virginia as we speak. The president threatened a nuclear first strike last week, then figured he's threaten a "military option" against Venezuela (Venezuela!?) yesterday just for kicks. This bit of weird comic relief doesn't even make the top ten, sorry.
- jsmthrowaway 9y agoAll of those are now routine, though. This is weird.
- toufka 9y agoMultiple US diplomats being sent home from Cuba with unexplained hearing loss...
- mprev 9y agoAnd yet a woman is, perhaps, dead. Hardly comic relief.
- mschuster91 9y ago>There are almost 2000 nazis holding a protest in Virginia as we speak Said nazis actually murdered one protestor and injured multiple others by mowing them down with cars. What happened there is bordering on insanity... and Trump didn't even try to distance himself from the nazis who voted him in in the first place.
- tpallarino 9y agoPretty sure he did: http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/donald-trump-disavow-groups-new-york-times/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/donald-trump-disavow-...
- danso 9y agoSomeone I follow on Twitter [0] had tweeted about their missing colleague, journalist Kim Wall, and I assumed it was connected to the this case. But I didn't know that none of the current news reports had her name. I assume that's a policy of the Danish police but it seems like that information could aid the search for a missing person. [0] https://mobile.twitter.com/Charress/status/896133872051671040 https://mobile.twitter.com/Charress/status/89613387205167104...
- cjg_ 9y agoHer family has confirmed it is her that is missing. (Swedish source: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/nqdMn/journalisten-kim-wall-ar-forsvunnen-efter-ubatshaveriet http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/nqdMn/journalisten-kim-w...)
- tyingq 9y agoStory, including a picture of her on the sub. http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/kim-isabel-forsvundet-i-ubaadsdrama/6775956 http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/kim-isabel-forsvundet-i-ubaadsdra...
- wodenokoto 9y agoHer name and face are all over Danish facebook.
- chvid 9y agoVery sad if it turns out that he actually killed the woman. Peter Madsen is an unofficial national hero.
- dogma1138 9y agoIsn't this the same guy who want's to launch private/amateur suborbital flights with human passengers?
- clan 9y agoYes. With himself as the first passenger.
- pvaldes 9y agoAnother hypothetical explanation could be the woman boycotting the sub and them fleeing the area > he said that he had dropped the woman off Thursday evening near where they had departed from, around 10:30pm. But no one had been able to reach the woman or establish her whereabouts. I said nothing, them. Different situation.
- juiyout 9y agoWhat a good way to sabotage a project. Not only destroy the product but also the reputation of the owner. Why did the journalist lie about writing for Wired again? Could it be someone other than the journalist who got onboard with Madsen? How would we verify? Could we determine that the tank failure was not a sabotage? Is it possible we eventually find the body of journalist neither in the ocean nor in the submarine?
- dogma1138 9y agoWhy would anyone sabotage the sub? there isn't a single party that would gain anything from this, last time I've checked there isn't some syndicate of submarine manufacturers that is threatened by some danish guy with a 60 foot sub.
- tyingq 9y ago>Why did the journalist lie about writing for Wired again? She probably didn't lie. She's a freelance writer that has written for many notable publications. Many freelancers write "on spec", meaning they intend to submit it somewhere, but don't have a contract to do the work. So "writing a story for wired" wouldn't be an odd thing to say if that's who you intended to push it to.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- interfixus 9y agoActually, there are two amateur spacelaunch projects working out of Copenhagen - both of them because of Peter Madsen. Copenhagen Suborbitals was his original setup, from which he was ousted several years ago, reportedly after repeated clashes of opinion and personality (Madsen is known to have a temper which occasionally flares out of proportion). Copenhagen Suborbitals and Madsen's new venture, Madsen Spacelab, were set to perform test launches in the Baltic later this month - both having been assigned the same area and different timeslots on the same day. The sub was planned to sail towards the site - based off the island of Bornholm - this weekend. It is now probably safe to assume that only the Suborbitals launch will be going forward.
- xorcist 9y agoAlso interesting is this submarine's home page. It used to be owned by an association of enthusiasts headed by Madsen, by earlier this year there was a prolonged conflict regarding ownership which led to everyone else surrendering their claims and transferring complete ownership to Madsen. The difficulties look similar...
- wutwutwutwut 9y agoTheir page says 2015, not 2017. I assume you are talking about http://www.uc3nautilus.dk http://www.uc3nautilus.dk.
- izopizo 9y agoThere's a fascinating documentary about Copenhagen Suborbitals. Amateurs in space. Trailer here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZlltBkq4vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZlltBkq4vs I highly recommend watching it, if you ever get a chance. Director was following both Peter and Kristian (initial founders) hoping it will be a comedy as in two guys trying to build a manned rocket. But then project grew and grew and became viable but the whole thing and documentary itself turned into a drama showing their fallout. Now with this news story there's another crime/thriller angle to it.
- hellbanner 9y agoI hate "is suspected" -- without saying who suspects. It's a weird kind of programming, expecting readers to trust the authority of the publication without all of the facts.
- darkstar999 9y agoIt is explained in the first paragraph. You can't expect the headline to have every detail.
- zapperdapper 9y ago"amateur-built sub". It was always going to end in tears...
- mikeyouse 9y agoThere seems to be a lot of confusion about what's implied and what's known. I think I've IDed an accurate timeline: 19:00 - Madsen and journalist depart for a trial run for a story that she's writing. 22:30 - Madsen claims he dropped the journalist off at this time, at a restaurant at the North end of the island. 02:30 - Journalist's husband reports her missing. 02:50 - Repeated attempts to reach the sub via radio are unsuccessful. 03:40 - Sub is reported missing by the police. 07:00 - General alarm set for Baltic, instructing all vessels to look for the sub. 10:15 - Sub spotted by Harbor Master in Koge Bay, South of where it was meant to be. Harbor Master talks to Madsen who claims he hadn't been in contact due to technical issues but is heading for harbor. 11:00 - Passing vessel sees the sub with Madsen on the tower. Madsen disappears below deck, then returns to the tower and the sub begins to sink. In 30 seconds, it's completely submerged and Madsen is rescued. Madsen tells the rescuers that he was the only passenger. 17:45 - After interviewing the journalist's family and Madsen, Madsen is placed under arrest for the death of the journalist. Madsen maintains that he dropped her off near a restaurant at 22:30 the previous day. It's indicated that the location where Madsen claimed to drop her off is blanketed with security cameras (whose footage the police have). The sub has been raised and will be inspected shortly. This isn't at all a case of "he panicked when the sub sank", there's a nearly 12-hour gap in his known location and even if you believe his story, the journalist that he dropped off at a restaurant hasn't been seen in a few days now.
- wodenokoto 9y agoThis story is developing extremely fast and is ripe for an episode of a crime show. The sub now been initially inspected and the police reports that nobody - dead or alive - was found inside. To add to the mystery, police reports that Mr. Madsen has changed his explanation, but the police will not clarify in what way. Management of the restaurant say they have not noticed a submarine (!) but have handed over all surveillance recordings to the police.
- passivepinetree 9y agoDo you have a source for this? I'm interested in following along as well.
- burntrelish1273 9y agoIANAL: How culpable are the authorities for certifying this craft, ie, reviewing engineering designs, inspections during build and post-build verifying control systems' fail-safes functionality, for passengers?
- jacquesm 9y agoI posted this yesterday when the news first broke (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993089), it looks quite bad, what are the chances of the journalist going missing within the same 24 hours of the sub sinking in front of a bunch of witnesses after the guy goes back down to reappear just as it sinks. Subs are after all made to sink, it should be pretty easy for the designer/builder of the sub to make it sink on command, the hatch being open will do the rest. At a guess they won't find the journalist inside, Madsen is way too smart to not realize that the sub was sinking in shallow water and would be lifted promptly, but in spite of that I don't have much hope of her still being alive. It's a real pity, Copenhagen Space Orbitals and Madsen as a person were quite the inspiration source for many and to see it end like this is harsh. Reminds me of the Reiser case, it took a while for the truth to come out there too.
- Iv 9y ago> Madsen is way too smart to not realize that the sub was sinking in shallow water If that's really a crime, it looked improvised and panicked to me, not thought out at all.
- jacquesm 9y agoTo me it looks like the coverup of a crime. Anyway, it's all speculation at this point.
- oh_sigh 9y agoIf he claimed that he dropped her off at the restaurant, why would he even bother sinking the sub?
- jacquesm 9y agoAt a guess because he didn't? If there is anything that would prove a crime he might hope submerging the boat would erase the evidence. It's all way too reminiscent of Hans Reiser trying to erase evidence of murder and pretending he was smarter than the investigators. That did not end well.
- erowtom 9y agoHere is a live video of the sub: https://tv.aftonbladet.se/abtv/articles/1245?broadcastId=768eea519f17a33705a81f6ea501cd3776ebe47d https://tv.aftonbladet.se/abtv/articles/1245?broadcastId=768...
- erowtom 9y agoUpdate: They are finally trying to breach in.
- Animats 9y ago- Looks like some guys are lowering the business end of a submersible trash pump into the conning tower. There's a flat hose attached, but it hasn't filled yet. - Flat hose just became round, so they're pumping out the sub. All this is happening leisurely; looks like they're trying to do this with minimum damage. - This is just some of the port crew and a crew from a heavy crane company preparing to move the thing. No emergency crews. They put the sub on a truck, using a huge dockside crane, and towed it away. Any investigation has already taken place or will be done elsewhere.
- tyingq 9y agoNo body on the sub: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40916787 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40916787
- Iv 9y agoFuck. Copenhaguen Suborbitals was a fantastic item to talk about to convince people that hobbyists can do great things. Now there will be a crime investigation linked to it? Damn. That feels like when I read about Pistorius crime...
- adamtulinius 9y agoCS and Peter Madsen split up ages ago, and have been working on separate rockets ever since. So no, this isn't in any way related to Copenhagen Suborbitals.
- discodave 9y agoJust because you're innocent doesn't mean you won't get dragged into the mud when somebody else does something dumb.
- Iv 9y agoStill, if one of the founder of my hackerspaces used our flagship project to cover a crime, I would expect some flak. Such a reputation dip has a broad splash zone.
- dghughes 9y agoI guess since the sub was only 40GT (gross tonnage) it didn't have an Automatic Identification System (AIS) on it only ships over 300GT require an AIS. Even if it did I wonder if an AIS operates separate from the ship's radio system. You can track ships by their AIS and some website sell historical data to show where a ship has been. https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:10.2/centery:56.1/zoom:6 https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:10.2/cente...
- quickthrower2 9y agoThis would make an ideal Law and Order episode.