4 ms·

> It's unfortunate that ML and Lisp didn't gain greater traction but that's likely due to Unix. Lisp and ML are competing by nature(MLs are famous from their t

by sds2 9y ago

> It's unfortunate that ML and Lisp didn't gain greater traction but that's likely due to Unix. Lisp and ML are competing by nature(MLs are famous from their typesystems) and their "failure" is not because of unix, but because of their inability to deliver 'fast' & readable apps. Also, the learning curve...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
macintux 9y ago
Wait, learning curve? Relative to C++ or Java?
- humanrebar 9y ago
  You can write something that passes acceptance tests in C++ without a lot of effort. It's things like removing all the bugs, memory leaks, and undefined behaviors that requires enormous expertise. There is certainly a lot of ground to cover before C++ mastery can be had, but simple OOP and procedural programs aren't that bad.
  - bitwize 9y ago
    > You can write something that passes acceptance tests in C++ without a lot of effort. True for freshman-year std::cout << "Hello, world!" << std::endl programs maybe. People's heads asplode when they get into C++ with any sophistication because they need to grasp several things at once: classes, inheritance and polymorphism, pointers (smart or not), value vs. reference types, etc. Java, JavaScript, and even Lisp go a long way toward hiding those details from the programmer.
- dom0 9y ago
  Java is perhaps cumbersome to use at times (and especially in older versions), but it's not a complicated language, in fact it is a lot simpler than most.
  - macintux 9y ago
    It's not, however, simpler than ML or Lisp. Just more familiar.
fiddlerwoaroof 9y ago
The performance claim doesn't really matter in a world where we use languages like Python, Ruby, PHP and Javascript for major applications. Also, compared to these languages, Common Lisp seems to generally be faster (and, on most implementation/architecture combinations, supports real parallelism). http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=python3&lang2=sbcl http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lan... http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=yarv&lang2=sbcl http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lan... http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=php&lang2=sbcl http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lan... http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=node&lang2=sbcl http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lan...
- sds2 9y ago
  > The performance claim doesn't really matter in a world where we use languages like Python, Ruby, PHP and Javascript for major applications. Yes, it does. And those languages are all providing negative user/developer experience.
flavio81 9y ago
>Lisp and ML are competing by nature(MLs are famous from their typesystems) and their "failure" is not because of unix, but because of their inability to deliver 'fast' & readable apps. ?! Lisp under SBCL is as fast as Java under the latest Oracle JVM and for numeric computation is sometimes as fast as Fortran. This means at least 10-20x faster than CPython, Ruby's MRI and others. I routinely read third-party Lisp libraries and they are very readable, no problems with that.
- sds2 9y ago
  > Lisp under SBCL is as fast as Java under the latest Oracle JVM and for numeric computation is sometimes as fast as Fortran. Back it up. > I routinely read third-party Lisp libraries and they are very readable, no problems with that. Me too and they're all junk.

by sds2 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

macintux 9y ago

Wait, learning curve? Relative to C++ or Java?

humanrebar 9y ago
You can write something that passes acceptance tests in C++ without a lot of effort. It's things like removing all the bugs, memory leaks, and undefined behaviors that requires enormous expertise. There is certainly a lot of ground to cover before C++ mastery can be had, but simple OOP and procedural programs aren't that bad.
- bitwize 9y ago
  > You can write something that passes acceptance tests in C++ without a lot of effort. True for freshman-year std::cout << "Hello, world!" << std::endl programs maybe. People's heads asplode when they get into C++ with any sophistication because they need to grasp several things at once: classes, inheritance and polymorphism, pointers (smart or not), value vs. reference types, etc. Java, JavaScript, and even Lisp go a long way toward hiding those details from the programmer.
dom0 9y ago
Java is perhaps cumbersome to use at times (and especially in older versions), but it's not a complicated language, in fact it is a lot simpler than most.
- macintux 9y ago
  It's not, however, simpler than ML or Lisp. Just more familiar.

fiddlerwoaroof 9y ago

The performance claim doesn't really matter in a world where we use languages like Python, Ruby, PHP and Javascript for major applications. Also, compared to these languages, Common Lisp seems to generally be faster (and, on most implementation/architecture combinations, supports real parallelism). http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=python3&lang2=sbcl http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lan... http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=yarv&lang2=sbcl http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lan... http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=php&lang2=sbcl http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lan... http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=node&lang2=sbcl http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lan...

sds2 9y ago
> The performance claim doesn't really matter in a world where we use languages like Python, Ruby, PHP and Javascript for major applications. Yes, it does. And those languages are all providing negative user/developer experience.

flavio81 9y ago

>Lisp and ML are competing by nature(MLs are famous from their typesystems) and their "failure" is not because of unix, but because of their inability to deliver 'fast' & readable apps. ?! Lisp under SBCL is as fast as Java under the latest Oracle JVM and for numeric computation is sometimes as fast as Fortran. This means at least 10-20x faster than CPython, Ruby's MRI and others. I routinely read third-party Lisp libraries and they are very readable, no problems with that.

sds2 9y ago
> Lisp under SBCL is as fast as Java under the latest Oracle JVM and for numeric computation is sometimes as fast as Fortran. Back it up. > I routinely read third-party Lisp libraries and they are very readable, no problems with that. Me too and they're all junk.