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An Average Guy Who Spent 6,000 Hours Trying to Be a Professional Golfer

182 points by tangue 9y ago

ryanwaggoner 9y ago
I actually randomly looked this guy up months ago after thinking about him and wondering whatever became of his experiment. Sad to see how it ended. Side note: the Atlantic's shit-tastic anti-ad blocker wouldn't let me in even though I'm a paying subscriber, AND I whitelisted them, so here's the AMP link: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/536592/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article...
- deleted 9y ago
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- 1337biz 9y ago
  Funny, I did the same a few weeks ago. The idea is still fascinating.
danso 9y ago
Since Malcolm Gladwell's book about 10,000 hours of practice, there must be dozens of stories that of people trying to reach that milestone in various pursuits (music, programming, arts). Would love to read a series of those (or maybe that's Gladwell's next book deal).
- ringaroundthetx 9y ago
  subsequent studies suggest talent is inherent and motivational self help book have nothing to do with that
Pulcinella 9y ago
I feel like there is some confusion between being successful and being professional. You could deliberately practice a sport or music for ~10,000 and be really damn good, but that doesn't mean you will go pro. That part is about luck and connections. Just because you are very skilled doesn't necessarily mean you will be "spotted" or "discovered" for example.
- denimnerd 9y ago
  golf has open tournaments. no need to be spotted it's literally just up to your ability and nothing else
  - yakult 9y ago
    You need access to expertise, equipment, grounds, peer competition. These all require money and/or connections.
    - SamReidHughes 9y ago
      Golf is cheap. You could spend $1000 on equipment, get a yearly pass for $2300 right outside Google HQ. Spend $50 or is it $100 to join the men's club -- they'd love for you to join -- and get your NCGA handicap. Done. Read the greatest kung fu manual ever written, "Five Lessons" by Ben Hogan, or use some other book. I met one kid that modeled his swing off of YouTube videos and with that got himself to a scratch handicap. The real cost is time.
      - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
        > Golf is cheap. You could spend $1000 on equipment, get a yearly pass for $2300 right outside Google HQ. $3300 is not in any way "cheap" for the majority of Americans. I like HN, but it's disheartening how many of my peers in tech seem to think that a West Coast programmer's salary is normal.
        SamReidHughes 9y ago
        It's cheaper than smoking. Edit: Well, depends on the accounting. The median U.S. income is $51K so by all means it's affordable. The main cost is time.
        randomdata 9y ago
        Median household income is $50k. Median individual income is $30k, leaving the aforementioned year of golf taking about 10% of ones (median) income. That is a fairly large expense.
brightball 9y ago
There's an episode of My Name is Earl based on this premise.
danielfoster 9y ago
I haven't read Gladwell's book, but I would imagine that time spent practicing is only one of several multipliers. Natural talent and the right coaching at the right time would be too others.
- ajross 9y ago
  Outliers is a fun read, and short. Just as with all Gladwell it's long on idea consistency and short on numerical rigor. But this is sort of a misinterpretation anyway. The point isn't that 10k hours is enough to make you a master in isolation, it's that masters don't get to be masters before 10k. At the top end of elite practitioners of any art, talent still matters.
  - bitexploder 9y ago
    And the studies he (Glad we'll) references are an average of 10000. Average. Sucks to be you if you are the 20k hours person. http://www.businessinsider.com/sports-gene-author-gladwell-10000-hour-rule-2013-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/sports-gene-author-gladwell-1... I read this book. It is well written and better researched than outliers by far.
- deleted 9y ago
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- k__ 9y ago
  I think it's the worst multiplier. Deliberate practice and perceptual exposure can cut this down rather much.
nemo44x 9y ago
Going pro shouldn't be the mark of success on this endeavor. There are a very limited number of seats and very likely pros have committed well more time. The fact he got to a 2 handicap is evidence you can become a master. Especially since he suffered a physical limitation after about 6k hours. Talent matters. Age matters. The ability to "get it" faster matters. Access makes you get it faster. But to go from no game to a 2 handicap is proof extremely hard work pays off. To be in the top 5% of anything makes you elite even if it doesn't make you a pro in an extremely selective occupation. A top-5% engineer can work anywhere and make top money.
- danso 9y ago
  Folks who decide to do a 10,000-hour challenge are probably already in some kind of elite group, in terms of wealth and free time (nevermind patience and perseverance). The average person isn't able to spend ~7 hours a day, every day for 4 years, on a non-salaried activity.
  - hackerpolicy 9y ago
    Maybe having one's future life at stake plays a role in one's effectiveness in practicing?
  - icelancer 9y ago
    >The average person isn't able to spend ~7 hours a day, every day for 4 years, on a non-salaried activity. I basically did this over 6 years, 3-5 hours per day on a non-earning activity to eventually launch the business I now run. In the last 3 years I've averaged 60-70 hours per week at work, only recently earning close to my last salary (about 65% as of last check) as a Data Scientist. It's doable enough. Just very hard. Can only really be done if it's your life's calling, which this was and I correctly identified it as such in year 2.
    - icelancer 9y ago
      Also the "10,000" hour rule (which has obviously been debunked) isn't really about 10,000 hours of focused practice on the task alone. Focused work and previous experience in other domains transfers into the activity/goal you chase. Being a Data Scientist gave me a huge leg up about understanding data structures and statistical analysis, huge in my field. Formerly a software developer, I was able to install, configure, and hack together a workable WooCommerce/WordPress PHP/MySQL CMS that generated content and still is our main shop, selling millions of dollars of merchandise per year. I used to work retail and retail management when I was young and putting myself through high school and college. Lessons about stocking, shipping, marketing, sales, logistics - all transferred into my online retail business. None transfer perfectly, but all make an impact. True, I knew nothing about "sports science" at the outset. But I had a big leg up from my limited college education and my extensive work history. That cut the "10,000" hours down significantly.
sumoboy 9y ago
Would have been a different story and probably had a better chance if would have started at 20. You'll find kids in high school and younger that have 2 handicaps, alot of physical abilities but less mental aspects for the game. Steph Curry (basketball star) carries a 2 handicap so just having athletic talent can really make a difference, give him <2000 hours of practice and I'd bet he could play on the web.com tour.
candiodari 9y ago
I wonder how much the back problem mattered here. Because you see the same, in fighting sports. Every 3 years or so someone comes and starts intense practice, thinking they can just do this. And you can ... But not if you practice hard enough to dislocate your knee in (the current record is) 2 months. Unless you're a kid, you need regular, long (as in a week minimum) breaks in practice. Every few months.
- cJ0th 9y ago
  > Unless you're a kid, you need regular, long (as in a week minimum) breaks in practice. Every few months. Moreover, I wonder if he'd become "automatically" better after a downtime of say 2 months. I could imagine his brain still has a lot of processing to do from this extreme time.
icelancer 9y ago
I highly recommend people reading a similar story by Lyle McDonald, called No Regrets [0]. He drops everything to become a world-champion short-track speed skater, which is miles and miles less competitive than professional golf. [0]: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/no-regrets-part-1.html/ http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/no-regrets-part-1....
mmel 9y ago
>“We [talked] about the idea of quitting everything to pursue something single-mindedly and whole-heartedly,” McLaughlin recounts. “Did you need talent or was it all about hard work?” Why not apply that mindset to commercial photography, the field he was already in?
- allcentury 9y ago
  The article said he felt indifferent about his previous and current careers.
netgusto 9y ago
It's the "Talent bound" vs "Effort bound" mindset. I side with "Effort bound" as a life motto. To challenge myself, if not for correctness relatively to the reality.
- roceasta 9y ago
  Effort in any field has the property that if you are bloody-minded enough it can bring you up to the wall beyond which talent lies. I hit this wall as a result of over-practicing piano aged 28 which I had to give up due to repetitive strain injury. The good news is that a few years later, in a separate development, the wall suddenly and completely dissolved. I can't describe the experience without sounding mystical. Still less can I explain it. The closest psychological concept I've found is Low Latent Inhibition and my guess is that this phenomenon lies behind all talent.
maxxxxx 9y ago
I sort of did a similar experiment from 15-35 with boxing. Trained a lot and became pretty competent. But to get to the top hard work is not enough. You also need talent. There are people in the gym that had speed and strength without any training that I couldn't reach with daily hard training. But I think doing this was probably still the best thing I did in my life. Doing something that seems out of reach and then becoming competent is great. Even without having success in the sense of winning.
- plinkplonk 9y ago
  I'm on the verge of attempting something like this in Tai Chi. I'm pretty sure I have only moderate (if any) talent, and age is against me as well, but I plan to give this an all out try. Great comment. Directly spoke to me. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
  - gbuk2013 9y ago
    I hope you do :) I hope you also get to practice the real deal, with the real Chi (and the Chuan) ;)
    - plinkplonk 9y ago
      ha! I know exactly what you speak of (chi/chuan) I practice a 'non fluff' variant, emphasizing lots of 'real world testing' against uncooperative opponents ;-)
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  There are people in the gym that had speed and strength without any training that I couldn't reach with daily hard training. I'm inclined to wonder if they were lucky & came with it, for whatever reason. Like, they happened to grow up playing basketball and shoveling dirt, so they have years of formative training already. I heard an interesting hypothesis once about ski stars- basically, that many pro skiers today had just the right foot & shin geometry as kids such that ski boots fit really well. A kid whose foot is NOT a great fit for the boots, might have plenty of latent skill & ability, but nobody custom-fits boots for kids. That's not to denigrate the pro skiers today, just to say, everyone comes to a sport with a different background, and having certain lucky prerequisites help you stand out right from the beginning.
SeanDav 9y ago
Absolutely true story: A friend of mine could make a golf ball do just about anything and was a wonder to watch. He was a scratch player or better (I don't recall his exact handicap). On paper, he was professional standard. He could sink 10 foot putts all day long (my hyperbole), but what he could not do was sink a 10-foot putt, when it counted. By his own admission, he just did not have the match temperament to perform when the pressure was really on. Golf at professional level is not just about skill, but also mental preparedness, fitness and probably a lot of other factors.
- majani 9y ago
  While this is true, I think golf etiquette makes it easier to handle the mental side. No screaming fans and flashing lights to deal with during the game like in other sports.
  - pja 9y ago
    That helps with the external distractions, but it doesn't help with the pressure you put on yourself - the internal mental pressure. There's a reason everyone recommends "The Inner Game of Tennis" in this context.
    - notahacker 9y ago
      Also, depending on how you handle pressure, a period of absolute silence when people concentrate on seeing whether you fail or not can be a lot more nerve-wracking than a colourful crowd of people relentlessly booing your team.
- jdhawk 9y ago
  I've played my entire life, and run a handful of people with the exact same game. Nick Faldo did an interview with Joe Buck where they touched on the subject, and he said without the complete conviction that you're going to sink the putt/make the birdie/win the tournament - you'll never accomplish any of it. At the Pro level, the mental aspect of the game is more important than the physical.
erikb 9y ago
Pure marketing and zero professionalism it seems. A real person attempting pro will have real trainers. They will help him make plans that don't overstress his body in a way that kills his back in 5 years. Then you set goals that are hard but reachable, not outright impossible. Of course some "impossible" goals can be reached, but not without first achieving some goals from the "possible" category.
- pakitan 9y ago
  What it seems is that you have read neither Dan's blog nor the article you're commenting on. He did hire real trainers.
  - erikb 9y ago
    Correction: He did pay people to train him. That's different from hiring real trainers. See the word "real" in "real trainers"? It's part of their job to protect your key body parts during training.
    - valuearb 9y ago
      "real trainers" is a marketing concept, and their knowledge is far from scientifically valid.
      - erikb 9y ago
        Yeah there are like 100 who will claim that title and 2 who really earn it. You need to be a fanatic yourself (about anything, not necessarily the same topic) to understand who is a fanatic in his claimed area as well.
callesgg 9y ago
He is not an average guy if he decides to do such a thing.
throwaway2016a 9y ago
I started learning golf a few years ago and to me it definitely seems like something most people can master with practice. Especially if you are good at putting your mind in the right place. It's really easy to become too stressed in golf or too careless or get too focused and overthink the shot. It is most mindful than any sport I've played. [1] With that said, I think there are two hard requirements for golf: - Time - Money The first one comes with the second as someone who has f* you money can make a lot of time. I know someone who "retired" at 40 for two years to exclusively practice golf. He eventually went back to work, not because he had to but because he was bored (serial entrepreneurs have to start companies... it's an addiction) I unfortunately am in the middle. I have been able to spend hundreds of dollars on the sport not thousands like some people I know. I have a hitting net at home I can go in my yard so I don't need to go to the driving range and that helps (a few hundred dollars well spent) but if I went to the course every weekend I'd be broke in no time. And I most certainly can't go on "Golf Vacations" half way around the country (though if I happen to be on vacation near a course I will go). [1] I found my shot improves ridiculously if I step back, breath, and stop thinking so hard about it. I've spent a long time thinking about shots only to slice it then gone up to the tee and swung without giving it a second thought and hit a perfect shot... repeatedly.
scott00 9y ago
If you like this story you may also be interested in the book "Paper Tiger" by Tom Coyne. Same idea of total dedication to making the PGA, but starting as a guy who played competitively in his youth, but had gotten rusty. He was shooting in the 80s, and decided to dedicate a year to it. Entertaining read I thought.
rmorey 9y ago
Should've gotten a Meeseeks
muzani 9y ago
10,000 hours is taken from the book Outliers, but it's not even true mastery. It's said to be the level where Bill Gates entered Harvard. 10,000 hours is more journeyman level than mastery. The book Mastery goes into much more detail, where it repeats that 10,000 hours is necessary, but there are other components to mastery. Among them is mentorship and creating some form of masterwork. The pro athletes have gone far past the 10,000 hours mark, but chances are they also had mentors and they've also taken some risks and invented their own styles. Keep practicing.
- jwdunne 9y ago
  I think there is a misconception with that number. It originally comes from a paper on deliberate practice from Anders Ericsson. You could spend 10,000 hours playing golf but it's highly unlikely you have spent 10,000 hours in deliberate practice. Deliberate practice is the relentless drill on areas you need to improve that sit outside your comfort zone. A game of golf, like anything, will include a variety of skills, some comfortable, some not so. I can't speak for the validity of the research but it's not as simple as doing something for 10,000 hours. The idea is to breakdown everything that you need to do in a golf game, analyse objectively where you stand on each and relentlessly nail the weakest areas. It's not fun, it's hard and I guess the key thing with talent is that it makes all of that a little bit easier plus a burning passion for the bigger picture (I wonder if that's the source of talent - a burning passion and some other innate advantages)?
ChuckMcM 9y ago
I remember when I found out that Gladwell was a journalist not a scientist. In science, cherry picking your data is malfeasance, and in journalism it is just good story telling. Which made me sad because I'd like to believe that you could 'practice your way' into some amazing profession. I also followed Dan's progress for the first couple of years. Here was a guy who was putting things to the test in a way that had not been done before. I expect if he writes a book on the topic I would not be the only one who bought it. So it is with some surprise that I read that Dan didn't know how to 'end it'. He did an amazing thing, and the results weren't what he expected or hoped but they were authentic and that is important. I don't think anyone who followed his story would say "oh he just slacked off for years" or any of that. I would hope he could sit back and evaluate it not as someone who 'failed to make the PGA' but rather as someone who tested this hypothesis of 10K hours and found it wanting. That is an excellent achievement and I hope he can see it that way.
cole_stokes 9y ago
He might have gotten farther if he had started at age 20 rather than 30. The latter age is very, very old to get a start in any sport, golf included.
shayna_walsh 9y ago
This proves Malcom Gladwell's theories were pure bunk
brycen31 9y ago
People seem to have a maximum skill level that they can attain, and hard training keeps them at that level, but can't get them any higher. If they quit hard training their skills drop quickly. Children's sports is a process where you have a bunch of kids play and the coach looks to see which kids have an affinity for the sport. It is essentially a weed-out process that eliminates most kids.
herman_ismael 9y ago
I don't know if it's talent, but I do think you have to be born with "something". I used to run marathons, and I trained with other amateurs, in a speed group around a track, led by a University Cross-Country and track coach. He used to say that to run a 3:30, you would have to be fit. To run under a 3:20, you had to be fit and work hard. To go under 3 hours, you'd have to work hard, and be born with "it". I wasn't. But training that hard did help me maximize what I was capable of, which at the end of the day was all I could hope for.
elwin43 9y ago
Kudos to him throwing caution to the wind and trying it. That took guts
kali46 9y ago
Neat article, I wonder how much of that concept really belonging in the athletic arena, however. Also, Gretzky is spelled with a Z
tigerBL00D 9y ago
We should be careful drwaing conclusions about the value of practice here. The main problem with this endeavor is the definition of success. The outcome is strictly binary. That is either he makes a pro tour or not. Apart from publicity, there is not a whole lot that can be redeemed if Dan gets, say, only 90% there. There are numerous ways one can challenge himself or herself and benefit enormously along the way to the top 6% in the respective field. For example, if it were finance, then he would have been very wealthy. If it were triathlon, then he'd be in great physical health. Etc. In real life going for it is not the only thing that leads to success. It's also choosing wisely what you do.
cstoltenberg 9y ago
Very cool. That said, I'm satisfied with my life. I just do sex differently and start about a decade earlier. Otherwise, it's all good.
murray_jody 9y ago
Natural Talent + Dedication = a chance to be great at something. I was an over achieving 6'2" power forward in junior college. Led the team in rebounding and blocked shots, but was always matched against guys 6'5" and taller, and 20 or more pounds of muscle heavier. So I don't care how much practice I did under what regime, I had already found my limits. 6'-2".
mattm 9y ago
"The Sports Gene" [1] is an excellent book on this topic backed up by not only research but entertaining stories as well. It has a section about Dan but also has stories about a world champion high jumper who dedicated his life to high jumping only to be surpassed by someone who wasn't really interested in it and had been practicing for less than a year. I think the lesson to take away from Dan's experience and what the author of this book argues as well is that yes, practice can make you a lot better. But to be among the best in the world, you'll need to have some sort of genetic advantage. [1] https://www.amazon.ca/Sports-Gene-Extraordinary-Athletic-Performance/dp/1591845114 https://www.amazon.ca/Sports-Gene-Extraordinary-Athletic-Per...
aug101 9y ago
"There is golf, and then there is tournament golf." - Bobby Jones. Dan picked one of the most ridiculously hard endeavors to 'master' and never even had a cup of coffee at a mini-tour event, let alone advancing in any of his state qualifiers or local invitationals. Even the pros who have their tour card but are not in the field for the next tournament sometimes play in a 1-round Monday qualifier, and they have to shoot in the mid to low 60s to top a field of 125-185 players to grab an open slot. Even then they likely will miss the cut at the event, as most tour players do week in week out - except the true superstars. A 2-handicap shows you can manage your way around a course, but it's miles away from tour-level. Tour players are in the +5 to +8 range at their home clubs, and those are all championship tracks they play from the tips - just for practice.
JaggerFoo 9y ago
After spending some time machine learning golf for daily fantasy wagering, I came to the conclusion that I will never take up the sport. As a social activity it has its positives, but on the sporting side consistency and improvement are hard to come by. * Professionals miss the cut n times in a row, then win next tournament. * The ridiculous "tips" videos with all the machinations and methods they put forth to help you with your game - I'd rather play Twister. * Equipment - costs and technology changes. Drivers are getting closer to looking like a sawed-off bowling ball attached to a shaft. However, I do enjoy watching the pros play and Spieth's 13th hole in the British Open and follow up was a memorable event. The PGA has to be commended for making public a great amount of super-detailed data for use in analysis. I wish the bigger sports did this. The book "Every Shot Counts" by Mark Broadie may help guide you to improve your game, if you are interested in a data analysis approach. Cheers
- nickswan 9y ago
  How did you get on with the machine learning part of it?

182 points by tangue 9y ago

I actually randomly looked this guy up months ago after thinking about him and wondering whatever became of his experiment. Sad to see how it ended. Side note: the Atlantic's shit-tastic anti-ad blocker wouldn't let me in even though I'm a paying subscriber, AND I whitelisted them, so here's the AMP link: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/536592/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
1337biz 9y ago
Funny, I did the same a few weeks ago. The idea is still fascinating.

danso 9y ago

Since Malcolm Gladwell's book about 10,000 hours of practice, there must be dozens of stories that of people trying to reach that milestone in various pursuits (music, programming, arts). Would love to read a series of those (or maybe that's Gladwell's next book deal).

ringaroundthetx 9y ago
subsequent studies suggest talent is inherent and motivational self help book have nothing to do with that

Pulcinella 9y ago

I feel like there is some confusion between being successful and being professional. You could deliberately practice a sport or music for ~10,000 and be really damn good, but that doesn't mean you will go pro. That part is about luck and connections. Just because you are very skilled doesn't necessarily mean you will be "spotted" or "discovered" for example.

denimnerd 9y ago
golf has open tournaments. no need to be spotted it's literally just up to your ability and nothing else
- yakult 9y ago
  You need access to expertise, equipment, grounds, peer competition. These all require money and/or connections.
  - SamReidHughes 9y ago
    Golf is cheap. You could spend $1000 on equipment, get a yearly pass for $2300 right outside Google HQ. Spend $50 or is it $100 to join the men's club -- they'd love for you to join -- and get your NCGA handicap. Done. Read the greatest kung fu manual ever written, "Five Lessons" by Ben Hogan, or use some other book. I met one kid that modeled his swing off of YouTube videos and with that got himself to a scratch handicap. The real cost is time.
    - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
      > Golf is cheap. You could spend $1000 on equipment, get a yearly pass for $2300 right outside Google HQ. $3300 is not in any way "cheap" for the majority of Americans. I like HN, but it's disheartening how many of my peers in tech seem to think that a West Coast programmer's salary is normal.
      - SamReidHughes 9y ago
        It's cheaper than smoking. Edit: Well, depends on the accounting. The median U.S. income is $51K so by all means it's affordable. The main cost is time.
        randomdata 9y ago
        Median household income is $50k. Median individual income is $30k, leaving the aforementioned year of golf taking about 10% of ones (median) income. That is a fairly large expense.

brightball 9y ago

There's an episode of My Name is Earl based on this premise.

danielfoster 9y ago

I haven't read Gladwell's book, but I would imagine that time spent practicing is only one of several multipliers. Natural talent and the right coaching at the right time would be too others.

ajross 9y ago
Outliers is a fun read, and short. Just as with all Gladwell it's long on idea consistency and short on numerical rigor. But this is sort of a misinterpretation anyway. The point isn't that 10k hours is enough to make you a master in isolation, it's that masters don't get to be masters before 10k. At the top end of elite practitioners of any art, talent still matters.
- bitexploder 9y ago
  And the studies he (Glad we'll) references are an average of 10000. Average. Sucks to be you if you are the 20k hours person. http://www.businessinsider.com/sports-gene-author-gladwell-10000-hour-rule-2013-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/sports-gene-author-gladwell-1... I read this book. It is well written and better researched than outliers by far.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
k__ 9y ago
I think it's the worst multiplier. Deliberate practice and perceptual exposure can cut this down rather much.

nemo44x 9y ago

Going pro shouldn't be the mark of success on this endeavor. There are a very limited number of seats and very likely pros have committed well more time. The fact he got to a 2 handicap is evidence you can become a master. Especially since he suffered a physical limitation after about 6k hours. Talent matters. Age matters. The ability to "get it" faster matters. Access makes you get it faster. But to go from no game to a 2 handicap is proof extremely hard work pays off. To be in the top 5% of anything makes you elite even if it doesn't make you a pro in an extremely selective occupation. A top-5% engineer can work anywhere and make top money.

danso 9y ago
Folks who decide to do a 10,000-hour challenge are probably already in some kind of elite group, in terms of wealth and free time (nevermind patience and perseverance). The average person isn't able to spend ~7 hours a day, every day for 4 years, on a non-salaried activity.
- hackerpolicy 9y ago
  Maybe having one's future life at stake plays a role in one's effectiveness in practicing?
- icelancer 9y ago
  >The average person isn't able to spend ~7 hours a day, every day for 4 years, on a non-salaried activity. I basically did this over 6 years, 3-5 hours per day on a non-earning activity to eventually launch the business I now run. In the last 3 years I've averaged 60-70 hours per week at work, only recently earning close to my last salary (about 65% as of last check) as a Data Scientist. It's doable enough. Just very hard. Can only really be done if it's your life's calling, which this was and I correctly identified it as such in year 2.
  - icelancer 9y ago
    Also the "10,000" hour rule (which has obviously been debunked) isn't really about 10,000 hours of focused practice on the task alone. Focused work and previous experience in other domains transfers into the activity/goal you chase. Being a Data Scientist gave me a huge leg up about understanding data structures and statistical analysis, huge in my field. Formerly a software developer, I was able to install, configure, and hack together a workable WooCommerce/WordPress PHP/MySQL CMS that generated content and still is our main shop, selling millions of dollars of merchandise per year. I used to work retail and retail management when I was young and putting myself through high school and college. Lessons about stocking, shipping, marketing, sales, logistics - all transferred into my online retail business. None transfer perfectly, but all make an impact. True, I knew nothing about "sports science" at the outset. But I had a big leg up from my limited college education and my extensive work history. That cut the "10,000" hours down significantly.

sumoboy 9y ago

Would have been a different story and probably had a better chance if would have started at 20. You'll find kids in high school and younger that have 2 handicaps, alot of physical abilities but less mental aspects for the game. Steph Curry (basketball star) carries a 2 handicap so just having athletic talent can really make a difference, give him <2000 hours of practice and I'd bet he could play on the web.com tour.

candiodari 9y ago

I wonder how much the back problem mattered here. Because you see the same, in fighting sports. Every 3 years or so someone comes and starts intense practice, thinking they can just do this. And you can ... But not if you practice hard enough to dislocate your knee in (the current record is) 2 months. Unless you're a kid, you need regular, long (as in a week minimum) breaks in practice. Every few months.

cJ0th 9y ago
> Unless you're a kid, you need regular, long (as in a week minimum) breaks in practice. Every few months. Moreover, I wonder if he'd become "automatically" better after a downtime of say 2 months. I could imagine his brain still has a lot of processing to do from this extreme time.

icelancer 9y ago

I highly recommend people reading a similar story by Lyle McDonald, called No Regrets [0]. He drops everything to become a world-champion short-track speed skater, which is miles and miles less competitive than professional golf. [0]: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/no-regrets-part-1.html/ http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/no-regrets-part-1....

mmel 9y ago

>“We [talked] about the idea of quitting everything to pursue something single-mindedly and whole-heartedly,” McLaughlin recounts. “Did you need talent or was it all about hard work?” Why not apply that mindset to commercial photography, the field he was already in?

allcentury 9y ago
The article said he felt indifferent about his previous and current careers.

netgusto 9y ago

It's the "Talent bound" vs "Effort bound" mindset. I side with "Effort bound" as a life motto. To challenge myself, if not for correctness relatively to the reality.

roceasta 9y ago
Effort in any field has the property that if you are bloody-minded enough it can bring you up to the wall beyond which talent lies. I hit this wall as a result of over-practicing piano aged 28 which I had to give up due to repetitive strain injury. The good news is that a few years later, in a separate development, the wall suddenly and completely dissolved. I can't describe the experience without sounding mystical. Still less can I explain it. The closest psychological concept I've found is Low Latent Inhibition and my guess is that this phenomenon lies behind all talent.

maxxxxx 9y ago

I sort of did a similar experiment from 15-35 with boxing. Trained a lot and became pretty competent. But to get to the top hard work is not enough. You also need talent. There are people in the gym that had speed and strength without any training that I couldn't reach with daily hard training. But I think doing this was probably still the best thing I did in my life. Doing something that seems out of reach and then becoming competent is great. Even without having success in the sense of winning.

plinkplonk 9y ago
I'm on the verge of attempting something like this in Tai Chi. I'm pretty sure I have only moderate (if any) talent, and age is against me as well, but I plan to give this an all out try. Great comment. Directly spoke to me. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
- gbuk2013 9y ago
  I hope you do :) I hope you also get to practice the real deal, with the real Chi (and the Chuan) ;)
  - plinkplonk 9y ago
    ha! I know exactly what you speak of (chi/chuan) I practice a 'non fluff' variant, emphasizing lots of 'real world testing' against uncooperative opponents ;-)
sliverstorm 9y ago
There are people in the gym that had speed and strength without any training that I couldn't reach with daily hard training. I'm inclined to wonder if they were lucky & came with it, for whatever reason. Like, they happened to grow up playing basketball and shoveling dirt, so they have years of formative training already. I heard an interesting hypothesis once about ski stars- basically, that many pro skiers today had just the right foot & shin geometry as kids such that ski boots fit really well. A kid whose foot is NOT a great fit for the boots, might have plenty of latent skill & ability, but nobody custom-fits boots for kids. That's not to denigrate the pro skiers today, just to say, everyone comes to a sport with a different background, and having certain lucky prerequisites help you stand out right from the beginning.

SeanDav 9y ago

Absolutely true story: A friend of mine could make a golf ball do just about anything and was a wonder to watch. He was a scratch player or better (I don't recall his exact handicap). On paper, he was professional standard. He could sink 10 foot putts all day long (my hyperbole), but what he could not do was sink a 10-foot putt, when it counted. By his own admission, he just did not have the match temperament to perform when the pressure was really on. Golf at professional level is not just about skill, but also mental preparedness, fitness and probably a lot of other factors.

majani 9y ago
While this is true, I think golf etiquette makes it easier to handle the mental side. No screaming fans and flashing lights to deal with during the game like in other sports.
- pja 9y ago
  That helps with the external distractions, but it doesn't help with the pressure you put on yourself - the internal mental pressure. There's a reason everyone recommends "The Inner Game of Tennis" in this context.
  - notahacker 9y ago
    Also, depending on how you handle pressure, a period of absolute silence when people concentrate on seeing whether you fail or not can be a lot more nerve-wracking than a colourful crowd of people relentlessly booing your team.
jdhawk 9y ago
I've played my entire life, and run a handful of people with the exact same game. Nick Faldo did an interview with Joe Buck where they touched on the subject, and he said without the complete conviction that you're going to sink the putt/make the birdie/win the tournament - you'll never accomplish any of it. At the Pro level, the mental aspect of the game is more important than the physical.

erikb 9y ago

Pure marketing and zero professionalism it seems. A real person attempting pro will have real trainers. They will help him make plans that don't overstress his body in a way that kills his back in 5 years. Then you set goals that are hard but reachable, not outright impossible. Of course some "impossible" goals can be reached, but not without first achieving some goals from the "possible" category.

pakitan 9y ago
What it seems is that you have read neither Dan's blog nor the article you're commenting on. He did hire real trainers.
- erikb 9y ago
  Correction: He did pay people to train him. That's different from hiring real trainers. See the word "real" in "real trainers"? It's part of their job to protect your key body parts during training.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    "real trainers" is a marketing concept, and their knowledge is far from scientifically valid.
    - erikb 9y ago
      Yeah there are like 100 who will claim that title and 2 who really earn it. You need to be a fanatic yourself (about anything, not necessarily the same topic) to understand who is a fanatic in his claimed area as well.

callesgg 9y ago

He is not an average guy if he decides to do such a thing.

throwaway2016a 9y ago

I started learning golf a few years ago and to me it definitely seems like something most people can master with practice. Especially if you are good at putting your mind in the right place. It's really easy to become too stressed in golf or too careless or get too focused and overthink the shot. It is most mindful than any sport I've played. [1] With that said, I think there are two hard requirements for golf: - Time - Money The first one comes with the second as someone who has f* you money can make a lot of time. I know someone who "retired" at 40 for two years to exclusively practice golf. He eventually went back to work, not because he had to but because he was bored (serial entrepreneurs have to start companies... it's an addiction) I unfortunately am in the middle. I have been able to spend hundreds of dollars on the sport not thousands like some people I know. I have a hitting net at home I can go in my yard so I don't need to go to the driving range and that helps (a few hundred dollars well spent) but if I went to the course every weekend I'd be broke in no time. And I most certainly can't go on "Golf Vacations" half way around the country (though if I happen to be on vacation near a course I will go). [1] I found my shot improves ridiculously if I step back, breath, and stop thinking so hard about it. I've spent a long time thinking about shots only to slice it then gone up to the tee and swung without giving it a second thought and hit a perfect shot... repeatedly.

scott00 9y ago

If you like this story you may also be interested in the book "Paper Tiger" by Tom Coyne. Same idea of total dedication to making the PGA, but starting as a guy who played competitively in his youth, but had gotten rusty. He was shooting in the 80s, and decided to dedicate a year to it. Entertaining read I thought.

rmorey 9y ago

Should've gotten a Meeseeks

muzani 9y ago

10,000 hours is taken from the book Outliers, but it's not even true mastery. It's said to be the level where Bill Gates entered Harvard. 10,000 hours is more journeyman level than mastery. The book Mastery goes into much more detail, where it repeats that 10,000 hours is necessary, but there are other components to mastery. Among them is mentorship and creating some form of masterwork. The pro athletes have gone far past the 10,000 hours mark, but chances are they also had mentors and they've also taken some risks and invented their own styles. Keep practicing.

jwdunne 9y ago
I think there is a misconception with that number. It originally comes from a paper on deliberate practice from Anders Ericsson. You could spend 10,000 hours playing golf but it's highly unlikely you have spent 10,000 hours in deliberate practice. Deliberate practice is the relentless drill on areas you need to improve that sit outside your comfort zone. A game of golf, like anything, will include a variety of skills, some comfortable, some not so. I can't speak for the validity of the research but it's not as simple as doing something for 10,000 hours. The idea is to breakdown everything that you need to do in a golf game, analyse objectively where you stand on each and relentlessly nail the weakest areas. It's not fun, it's hard and I guess the key thing with talent is that it makes all of that a little bit easier plus a burning passion for the bigger picture (I wonder if that's the source of talent - a burning passion and some other innate advantages)?

ChuckMcM 9y ago

I remember when I found out that Gladwell was a journalist not a scientist. In science, cherry picking your data is malfeasance, and in journalism it is just good story telling. Which made me sad because I'd like to believe that you could 'practice your way' into some amazing profession. I also followed Dan's progress for the first couple of years. Here was a guy who was putting things to the test in a way that had not been done before. I expect if he writes a book on the topic I would not be the only one who bought it. So it is with some surprise that I read that Dan didn't know how to 'end it'. He did an amazing thing, and the results weren't what he expected or hoped but they were authentic and that is important. I don't think anyone who followed his story would say "oh he just slacked off for years" or any of that. I would hope he could sit back and evaluate it not as someone who 'failed to make the PGA' but rather as someone who tested this hypothesis of 10K hours and found it wanting. That is an excellent achievement and I hope he can see it that way.

cole_stokes 9y ago

He might have gotten farther if he had started at age 20 rather than 30. The latter age is very, very old to get a start in any sport, golf included.

shayna_walsh 9y ago

This proves Malcom Gladwell's theories were pure bunk

brycen31 9y ago

People seem to have a maximum skill level that they can attain, and hard training keeps them at that level, but can't get them any higher. If they quit hard training their skills drop quickly. Children's sports is a process where you have a bunch of kids play and the coach looks to see which kids have an affinity for the sport. It is essentially a weed-out process that eliminates most kids.

herman_ismael 9y ago

I don't know if it's talent, but I do think you have to be born with "something". I used to run marathons, and I trained with other amateurs, in a speed group around a track, led by a University Cross-Country and track coach. He used to say that to run a 3:30, you would have to be fit. To run under a 3:20, you had to be fit and work hard. To go under 3 hours, you'd have to work hard, and be born with "it". I wasn't. But training that hard did help me maximize what I was capable of, which at the end of the day was all I could hope for.

elwin43 9y ago

Kudos to him throwing caution to the wind and trying it. That took guts

kali46 9y ago

Neat article, I wonder how much of that concept really belonging in the athletic arena, however. Also, Gretzky is spelled with a Z

tigerBL00D 9y ago

We should be careful drwaing conclusions about the value of practice here. The main problem with this endeavor is the definition of success. The outcome is strictly binary. That is either he makes a pro tour or not. Apart from publicity, there is not a whole lot that can be redeemed if Dan gets, say, only 90% there. There are numerous ways one can challenge himself or herself and benefit enormously along the way to the top 6% in the respective field. For example, if it were finance, then he would have been very wealthy. If it were triathlon, then he'd be in great physical health. Etc. In real life going for it is not the only thing that leads to success. It's also choosing wisely what you do.

cstoltenberg 9y ago

Very cool. That said, I'm satisfied with my life. I just do sex differently and start about a decade earlier. Otherwise, it's all good.

murray_jody 9y ago

Natural Talent + Dedication = a chance to be great at something. I was an over achieving 6'2" power forward in junior college. Led the team in rebounding and blocked shots, but was always matched against guys 6'5" and taller, and 20 or more pounds of muscle heavier. So I don't care how much practice I did under what regime, I had already found my limits. 6'-2".

mattm 9y ago

"The Sports Gene" [1] is an excellent book on this topic backed up by not only research but entertaining stories as well. It has a section about Dan but also has stories about a world champion high jumper who dedicated his life to high jumping only to be surpassed by someone who wasn't really interested in it and had been practicing for less than a year. I think the lesson to take away from Dan's experience and what the author of this book argues as well is that yes, practice can make you a lot better. But to be among the best in the world, you'll need to have some sort of genetic advantage. [1] https://www.amazon.ca/Sports-Gene-Extraordinary-Athletic-Performance/dp/1591845114 https://www.amazon.ca/Sports-Gene-Extraordinary-Athletic-Per...

aug101 9y ago

"There is golf, and then there is tournament golf." - Bobby Jones. Dan picked one of the most ridiculously hard endeavors to 'master' and never even had a cup of coffee at a mini-tour event, let alone advancing in any of his state qualifiers or local invitationals. Even the pros who have their tour card but are not in the field for the next tournament sometimes play in a 1-round Monday qualifier, and they have to shoot in the mid to low 60s to top a field of 125-185 players to grab an open slot. Even then they likely will miss the cut at the event, as most tour players do week in week out - except the true superstars. A 2-handicap shows you can manage your way around a course, but it's miles away from tour-level. Tour players are in the +5 to +8 range at their home clubs, and those are all championship tracks they play from the tips - just for practice.

JaggerFoo 9y ago

After spending some time machine learning golf for daily fantasy wagering, I came to the conclusion that I will never take up the sport. As a social activity it has its positives, but on the sporting side consistency and improvement are hard to come by. * Professionals miss the cut n times in a row, then win next tournament. * The ridiculous "tips" videos with all the machinations and methods they put forth to help you with your game - I'd rather play Twister. * Equipment - costs and technology changes. Drivers are getting closer to looking like a sawed-off bowling ball attached to a shaft. However, I do enjoy watching the pros play and Spieth's 13th hole in the British Open and follow up was a memorable event. The PGA has to be commended for making public a great amount of super-detailed data for use in analysis. I wish the bigger sports did this. The book "Every Shot Counts" by Mark Broadie may help guide you to improve your game, if you are interested in a data analysis approach. Cheers

nickswan 9y ago
How did you get on with the machine learning part of it?