4 ms·

To be clear 1v1 mid lane is harder than 1 unit v 1 unit in sc. But it is at least 3 levels behind 5v5 human play. So first it's laining, which is showing in th

To be clear 1v1 mid lane is harder than 1 unit v 1 unit in sc. But it is at least 3 levels behind 5v5 human play. So first it's laining, which is showing in the game. Then is the ganking basically 2-3 player working together. Above that that's 5 men team fight. Then you have the strategy planning in the band pick phase, and in game movement coordination. There are other things like item choices, in game communication etc. I guess bots never tilt... This 1v1 match is definitely a proof of the strength and maturity of modern AI. It will be extremely interesting to see if they can train a bot to achieve the above intelligence. If so, I guess the game is pretty much losing a lot of its appeal.

hellbanner 9y ago
How does having a bot succeed cause appeal to be lost? First you're suggesting that the strategy will be "found" and never beaten (no room for improvement, not even in hero selection). Secondly.. Chess & Go have been around for thousands of years and they still are played en masse daily.
- justicezyx 9y ago
  > How does having a bot succeed cause appeal to be lost? You might think not beating bots is OK. Not for me and many people have been involved in competitive scene. The moment machine beats human, a large part of the competition is gone. The essence is that you want to be the best. But if all you can do is to beat some other inferior opponents, what's the point? > Secondly.. Chess & Go have been around for thousands of years and they still are played en masse daily. This is irrelevant.
  - tyoverby 9y ago
    Human Chess players lost against Deep Blue in 1997; people still play Chess. In fact, they've learned a lot of strategies from the strategically superior AI.
  - taneq 9y ago
    We've had forklifts for decades and plenty of people still enter power lifting competitions.
edran 9y ago
The micromanagement task in StarCraft Broodwar (with TorchCraft) that has been used by a few people already in the past year to do some RL research has been tackled basically only with #units > 1, because getting a balanced 1v1 is possible only with certain combination of units, and it's indeed pointless otherwise. Kiting is maybe a notable exception, but it is also restricted to a relatively small group of unit matchups. See for instance the following papers: - https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.02993 https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.02993 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1702.08887 https://arxiv.org/abs/1702.08887 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.10069 https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.10069 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.08926 https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.08926 Full disclosure: I'm one of such researchers, and I have authored some of the papers on the topic.
ronald_raygun 9y ago
I'm not sure about DOTA, but in LOL there is also champion select which happens before the game starts, where you try to pick/ban/steal champions to get a good team comp and get the other team to have a bad team comp. It's lots of know overall strategy, what your enemy likes, and some game theory. You can lose the game before your summoner even hits the field.
- derimagia 9y ago
  Yep it's called Drafting
- deivid 9y ago
  Main difference is all Dota heroes are viable in competitive. Also, there's no mirror match
  - needz 9y ago
    Only 3 heroes not picked in TI, iirc. It hasn't always been this diverse though. This patch is particularly well balanced.
    - deivid 9y ago
      Picked heroes have been >80% since TI3. Compare that to LoL's ~50% https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4n5og5/comparing_professional_lol_champion_pick/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4n5og5/com...
    - duskwuff 9y ago
      Out of 112 heroes which are currently available in Captain's Mode, 107 have been picked at least once during the group stage and main event. Two (Lion and Tiny) have each been banned once but never picked, and three (Bane, Spectre, and Skele-- er, Wraith King) have not been picked or banned. https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/events/197/picks https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/events/197/picks
- justicezyx 9y ago

hellbanner 9y ago

How does having a bot succeed cause appeal to be lost? First you're suggesting that the strategy will be "found" and never beaten (no room for improvement, not even in hero selection). Secondly.. Chess & Go have been around for thousands of years and they still are played en masse daily.

justicezyx 9y ago
> How does having a bot succeed cause appeal to be lost? You might think not beating bots is OK. Not for me and many people have been involved in competitive scene. The moment machine beats human, a large part of the competition is gone. The essence is that you want to be the best. But if all you can do is to beat some other inferior opponents, what's the point? > Secondly.. Chess & Go have been around for thousands of years and they still are played en masse daily. This is irrelevant.
- tyoverby 9y ago
  Human Chess players lost against Deep Blue in 1997; people still play Chess. In fact, they've learned a lot of strategies from the strategically superior AI.
- taneq 9y ago
  We've had forklifts for decades and plenty of people still enter power lifting competitions.

edran 9y ago

The micromanagement task in StarCraft Broodwar (with TorchCraft) that has been used by a few people already in the past year to do some RL research has been tackled basically only with #units > 1, because getting a balanced 1v1 is possible only with certain combination of units, and it's indeed pointless otherwise. Kiting is maybe a notable exception, but it is also restricted to a relatively small group of unit matchups. See for instance the following papers: - https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.02993 https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.02993 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1702.08887 https://arxiv.org/abs/1702.08887 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.10069 https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.10069 - https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.08926 https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.08926 Full disclosure: I'm one of such researchers, and I have authored some of the papers on the topic.

ronald_raygun 9y ago

I'm not sure about DOTA, but in LOL there is also champion select which happens before the game starts, where you try to pick/ban/steal champions to get a good team comp and get the other team to have a bad team comp. It's lots of know overall strategy, what your enemy likes, and some game theory. You can lose the game before your summoner even hits the field.

derimagia 9y ago
Yep it's called Drafting
deivid 9y ago
Main difference is all Dota heroes are viable in competitive. Also, there's no mirror match
- needz 9y ago
  Only 3 heroes not picked in TI, iirc. It hasn't always been this diverse though. This patch is particularly well balanced.
  - deivid 9y ago
    Picked heroes have been >80% since TI3. Compare that to LoL's ~50% https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4n5og5/comparing_professional_lol_champion_pick/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4n5og5/com...
  - duskwuff 9y ago
    Out of 112 heroes which are currently available in Captain's Mode, 107 have been picked at least once during the group stage and main event. Two (Lion and Tiny) have each been banned once but never picked, and three (Bane, Spectre, and Skele-- er, Wraith King) have not been picked or banned. https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/events/197/picks https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/events/197/picks
justicezyx 9y ago