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Wow, that was not even close either. And it only takes it two weeks to reach that level of play? OpenAI should create a team of five (as they said they would) a

by sondr3 9y ago

Wow, that was not even close either. And it only takes it two weeks to reach that level of play? OpenAI should create a team of five (as they said they would) and let it play in the qualifiers next year.

hmate9 9y ago
5v5 is much more complex than 1v1 gameplay, it's not as simple as taking the current AI and making 5 of it.
- criloz2 9y ago
  also, it only will be fair if the bots are completely independents instead of a unique bot controlling 5 heroes
- sondr3 9y ago
  I'm not arguing that, just that it would be cool. The creators mentioned on stage that next year it would be a team of five bots. They also said it took the bot two weeks to reach the level it was at right now, so I'm curious to see how/if it'll evolve in the future.
- ronald_raygun 9y ago
  I don't want to be "that guy", but I used to play a lot of LOL, and I feel like 5v5 is in a different ballpark in terms of difficulty than a 1v1. Even champion select is strategically intensive. TSM (one of the best US teams), lost to an amateur team because they got out done in team selection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7l30-4A6WQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7l30-4A6WQ
  - hmate9 9y ago
    It is extremely difficult. 1v1 is like beating humans at chess. 5v5 is like beating humans at Go. That's the kind of jump it is.
    - unrealhoang 9y ago
      I would even bring that to one more level of difficulty. There are so many choices can be made in-game to gain advantages over enemy: item build, gank/farm distribution, resource sharing, vision fight, choose to defense or let go/trade of tower/objectives... If we can have AI that beat Pro at 5v5 in Dota, it would very likely be an AGI.
      - Tomminn 9y ago
        No. The value function for the AI will be way too specialized to look anything like AGI.
mAritz 9y ago
To be fair, the 1v1 Shadow Fiend matchup with these rules is A LOT about exact distances and timings. To which the bot has direct API access and the human has to got the whole GPU -> screen -> eyes -> brain -> muscles -> mouse -> CPU cycle.
- xfer 9y ago
  Agreed, bot will always be good at spell casting, last hitting, which actually is a major factor in winning(the sooner you get higher level you can zone the other player).
  - ModernMech 9y ago
    Especially for Shadow Fiend, which, for those who don't know, gets extra damage for every last-hit. If you're good at it, you can have extra damage equating to a late game item as an early game character.
- zamalek 9y ago
  Shadow Fiend really comes into its own when blind shots happen, as with many other heroes, fights can be lost to line-of-sight. That requires knowing your opponent's mind and prediction. I can't watch the video just yet, but this is the human behavior you should look out for (such as AlphaGo demonstrated repeatedly in the most recent match).
simonebrunozzi 9y ago
Given how fast these things generally progress, I wouldn't be surprised if these 5 bots would win the championship in 2018. Or maybe in 2019 at the latest.

by sondr3 9y ago

hmate9 9y ago

5v5 is much more complex than 1v1 gameplay, it's not as simple as taking the current AI and making 5 of it.

criloz2 9y ago
also, it only will be fair if the bots are completely independents instead of a unique bot controlling 5 heroes
sondr3 9y ago
I'm not arguing that, just that it would be cool. The creators mentioned on stage that next year it would be a team of five bots. They also said it took the bot two weeks to reach the level it was at right now, so I'm curious to see how/if it'll evolve in the future.
ronald_raygun 9y ago
I don't want to be "that guy", but I used to play a lot of LOL, and I feel like 5v5 is in a different ballpark in terms of difficulty than a 1v1. Even champion select is strategically intensive. TSM (one of the best US teams), lost to an amateur team because they got out done in team selection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7l30-4A6WQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7l30-4A6WQ
- hmate9 9y ago
  It is extremely difficult. 1v1 is like beating humans at chess. 5v5 is like beating humans at Go. That's the kind of jump it is.
  - unrealhoang 9y ago
    I would even bring that to one more level of difficulty. There are so many choices can be made in-game to gain advantages over enemy: item build, gank/farm distribution, resource sharing, vision fight, choose to defense or let go/trade of tower/objectives... If we can have AI that beat Pro at 5v5 in Dota, it would very likely be an AGI.
    - Tomminn 9y ago
      No. The value function for the AI will be way too specialized to look anything like AGI.

mAritz 9y ago

To be fair, the 1v1 Shadow Fiend matchup with these rules is A LOT about exact distances and timings. To which the bot has direct API access and the human has to got the whole GPU -> screen -> eyes -> brain -> muscles -> mouse -> CPU cycle.

xfer 9y ago
Agreed, bot will always be good at spell casting, last hitting, which actually is a major factor in winning(the sooner you get higher level you can zone the other player).
- ModernMech 9y ago
  Especially for Shadow Fiend, which, for those who don't know, gets extra damage for every last-hit. If you're good at it, you can have extra damage equating to a late game item as an early game character.
zamalek 9y ago
Shadow Fiend really comes into its own when blind shots happen, as with many other heroes, fights can be lost to line-of-sight. That requires knowing your opponent's mind and prediction. I can't watch the video just yet, but this is the human behavior you should look out for (such as AlphaGo demonstrated repeatedly in the most recent match).

simonebrunozzi 9y ago

Given how fast these things generally progress, I wouldn't be surprised if these 5 bots would win the championship in 2018. Or maybe in 2019 at the latest.