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Inmates offered reduced sentences for birth control procedure
- dogruck 9y agoIf we support "cash for clunkers" why not support "pay people to be sterilized?" I don't mean "pay poor people and criminals" -- I mean, open up the program to any person who volunteers.
- mc32 9y agoI don't see an issue if it's available to one and all adults for free with no strings attached.
- dogruck 9y agoWhat about the hypothetical scenario where the procedure is free, and the volunteer also receives, say, $2,000?
- mc32 9y agoIf everyone is offered the $2,000, for the reversible kind, I'm okay with it. I know for some people 2,000 is something, for some people it's nothing. But if it's reversible I don't see the harm.
- dogruck 9y agoOn the whole, I'm with you -- even if the procedure is not reversible. I do have sympathy for the view that paying people to be sterilized preys upon the weak. Many people can think of things that they would have done for $2,000 at one point, but not at another point.
- brandonhsiao 9y agoIf getting 30 days shaved off your sentence is such an appealing offer that an optional bargain involving sterilization is considered coercion, surely it's putting people in prison that's inhumane here?
- andrei_says_ 9y agoPrison in the U.S. is cruel and unusual punishment, as well as an institution of modern slavery. Race and income are the highest predictors of whether a person would end up in prison. Both of these speak loudly about us as a society and about our true values.
- fixxer 9y agoIn the case of drug crimes, I agree with you. Appeal of the logic starts to break down when you scale it out for violent offenders. In fact, I find the lax sentencing in Scandanavian countries appalling.
- ceejayoz 9y ago> In fact, I find the lax sentencing in Scandanavian countries appalling. Do you find their low recidivism rates similarly appalling?
- fixxer 9y agoI find their population bares little resemblence to Chicago's.
- ceejayoz 9y agoWe're not talking about Chicago, are we? You said "In fact, I find the lax sentencing in Scandanavian countries appalling." I'm asking if you're appalled by the low recidivism rates their apparently-appalling justice system produces.
- fixxer 9y agoSure we are. "Socialism works so well there! We should do it here." "They have such low recidivism there! We should use their sentencing as a standard!" I think violent offenses are more than something that requires reform for the perpetrator. It requires justice for the victim. Rape and murder? Fuck you, you're going away FOREVER.
- psarcasm 9y agoit's not eugenics I swear
- mc32 9y agoWhat is the real end difference between this and something like genomic editing? I'm not arguing for one or none of the above. Simply curious.
- ceejayoz 9y agoThe coercion part.
- pklausler 9y agoCoercion, or incentives? The criminals can say no.
- Retra 9y ago"Say yes or spend time in jail" is not coercion, in your opinion?
- pklausler 9y agoCoercion is taking a free person and threatening them with something horrible if they don't comply. These criminals were going to go to jail anyway. Not a big distinction, but I don't think that it's coercion.
- ceejayoz 9y agoYou know you don't just get to make up new definitions for words to win arguments, right? I can't find a single definition of coercion that requires "a free person" to be the one being threatened.
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- sysdyne 9y agoRIP Here lies humanity
- bitJericho 9y agoNews flash. This has been ongoing for decades, on and off. America is a shithole.
- ryanmarsh 9y agoHonest question, is anywhere not?
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoAustralia and New Zealand?
- alistairSH 9y agoSurely you jest? If not, I suggest you do some research on the Australian government, eugenics, and aboriginal populations.
- jdboyd 9y agoAustralia was considering forced castrations as recently as 2015. Also, I'm led to believe that internet service is fairly poor there due to limiting outgoing bandwidth. I don't really know anything bad about NZ.
- genon 9y ago> I don't really know anything bad about NZ. https://e2nz.org https://e2nz.org
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoI 100/40 Mbps fibre connection to my house in Launceston, Tasmania. Seems to work alright. But I'm lucky. I've often wondered if I had been castrated as a teenager maybe I would have spent less time in police lockup for stupid behavioural issues. Castration, as well as the elimination of hormonally-driven behavior associated with a stallion, allows a male horse to be calmer and better-behaved, making the animal quieter, gentler and potentially more suitable as an everyday working animal.[1] Decreased Aggression: One of the most important behavioral advantages of castration is that as adults, these dogs will tend to be less aggressive both toward other male dogs and also people. The androgen (male) hormones, of which testosterone is the most important, are responsible for the development of many behavioral patterns. When young puppies are sexually mounting their 7 and 8-week old litter mates this is because of androgen surges in their bodies. The same is true with aggressive behavior.[2] Forced castration is something I don't think anyone should admit to supporting. I wonder if there is scope for repeat violent offenders be offered the procedure in exchange for early release or more lenient sentencing. Can, meet worms. I like to imagine that scenario ends up being a footgun when, in the future, we've bred violence out of the human race, the aliens invade and we're too passive to do anything about it. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelding 2. https://www.petcoach.co/article/benefits-of-neutering-castrating-male-dogs-puppies/ https://www.petcoach.co/article/benefits-of-neutering-castra...
- qguv 9y agoThis is not "birth control"—it's "coerced sterilization."
- LeifCarrotson 9y agoIt's my understanding that the hormone-releasing implants for the women are birth control - remove it and you can get pregnant again in a month or two. I see this is an arm implant, not an IUD as a couple of friends have used (and subsequently removed and had a beautiful healthy daughter), so I may be incorrect. But yes, the vasectomy offered to the men is far more permanent than "birth control".
- mc32 9y agoIndia pioneered a "reversible vasectomy" [1]. Basically they gum up the ducts from the testes. It does not have to be irreversible. The thing to watch is whether knowing they have become, at least temporarily, infertile, will lead them to unsafe sex practices resulting in more venereal disease. [1]http://newatlas.com/risug-male-contraception/18824/ http://newatlas.com/risug-male-contraception/18824/
- k_sh 9y agoThere's a YC company, Contraline[1][2], doing a similar thing. [1]: http://contraline.com/ http://contraline.com/ [2]: http://contraline.com/news/2016/05/13/contraline-is-accepted-into-y-combinator-fellowship/ http://contraline.com/news/2016/05/13/contraline-is-accepted...
- Latty 9y agoI remember reading an impressive statistic where the implant actually has a higher real world success rate due to more botched/healed ligations. Edit: http://www.ohjoysextoy.com/implant/ http://www.ohjoysextoy.com/implant/ -0.05% failure rate on implants, 0.5% on sterilisation. Impressive.
- pasbesoin 9y agoSo, where are the Conservatives deploring this government involvement in health care? Or, viewed from another angle, this is the future of health care in America. (For those who are unaware, note that other aspects of health care in U.S. incarceration are often poor or outright unavailable. As a simple exercise, just say to yourself "private prison" -- which many jurisdictions have increasingly moved to -- and imagine the corresponding pressure for cost savings (i.e. profit). But, "spay and neuter" them? [Yes, an intentionally harsh and polemic phrasing on my part.] Sure, we can pay for that.)
- flimflamman 9y agoConservatives do not like it when the government forces them to pay for other people's birth control. This is usually one of the top issues in any American election and is discussed repeatedly year-round in the media.
- brainopener 9y ago"A Tennessee judge has rescinded his controversial program that sought to encourage drug-dependent female and male inmates to cut their jail time by voluntarily agreeing to undergo birth control procedures. White County General Sessions Court Judge Sam Benningfield of Sparta filed the order on Wednesday, a day before two state lawmakers asked Tennessee Attorney General Herbert Slatery to render a legal opinion on the controversial program's constitutionality." http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/breakingnews/story/2017/jul/27/tn-lawmakers-seek-state-attorney-general-opinion-judges-inmate-sterilization--freedom-program/440575/ http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/breakingnews/story/2017/j...
- tcj_phx 9y agoSome women have a severe adverse reaction to "hormonal" birth control. These products actually use hormone analogues that disrupt the steroid pathways. This diagram shows how cholesterol is turned into the steroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#/media/File:Steroidogenesis.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#/media/File:Steroidoge... As best I can figure, my friend had her first psychotic break after 9 months of chemical castration with time released medroxyprogesterone acetate (Depo Provera). This drug is a very good mimic of Progesterone USP (what the body makes for itself), but the body cannot transform it into the steroids downstream from Progesterone USP. Most of the other endocrine disruptors used as birth control aren't nearly as bad as Provera, but all have potential for adverse reactions. edit: wording
- masonic 9y agochemical castration Equating temporary and removable birth control with "castration" is ludicrous.
- tcj_phx 9y ago> Equating temporary and removable birth control with "castration" is ludicrous. The 'chemical castration' comment was about Depo Provera specifically. The injection is NOT removable: you're basically stuck with the effects for 3+ months, unless you know to use the antidote (which is not covered in doctors' curriculum for using this class of drugs on their patients). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration#United_Sta...
- Veratyr 9y agoThe article mentions that they're using Nexplanon, which, though it's a hormonal method as you say, is absolutely not comparable to chemical castration. It's recommended for use by Planned Parenthood among other organisations, as it's convenient and has a low failure rate. All the "chemical castration" and "severe adverse reaction" seems to do here is introduce unwarranted FUD. As far as I'm able to find, the number of complications due to the implant are insignificant. It's like those disclaimers in drugs commercials where they mention a headache relief medicine might give you a heart attack. Sure it's possible, no it's not something many people need to worry about.
- koolba 9y agoThis is disgusting.
- flimflamman 9y agoThis practice has been stopped. (Edit) Source: http://wkrn.com/2017/07/27/white-county-judge-stops-trading-jail-time-for-vasectomies/ http://wkrn.com/2017/07/27/white-county-judge-stops-trading-...
- loeg 9y agoThe article is from July 21, which wasn't too long ago.
- loeg 9y ago(Can't edit my comment anymore, unfortunately. To clarify the context, before it was edited, the grandparent comment I replied to said something like: "This article is very old." The author has since removed that sentence.)
- stefantalpalaru 9y ago"The recent revelation that 148 female prisoners in two California institutions were sterilized between 2006 and 2010 is another example of the state’s long history of reproductive injustice and the ongoing legacy of eugenics." - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-stern/sterilization-california-prisons_b_3631287.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-stern/sterilization-calif...
- Animats 9y agoThere's been sterilization of "welfare moms" in the recent past in the US.[1] [1] http://www.thedailybeast.com/sterilized-for-being-poor http://www.thedailybeast.com/sterilized-for-being-poor
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- masonic 9y ago1981 isn't "recent", and it was illegal even then, as your link states clearly.
- Mz 9y agoI am failing to find it, but this same basic story was posted in recent weeks. Perhaps just as well. A tldr of my comments there: Eh, some inmates might feel "You are going to reduce my sentence AND give me free birth control? What's the catch?" As this article says, he may be going about it the wrong way, but he probably is trying to do something good. The Deep South (where I was born and raised) seems to generally be even worse than the rest of America about certain things. I can see him being willing to take the blame so some young woman can stop being a baby factory and blame it on him, thereby getting relatives and church members off her back.
- Buge 9y agoIs it common for inmates to have relatives and church members on their back about not having children? It seems there is a more serious situation that the relatives and church members would be on their back about.
- Mz 9y agoI have read that sexual activity among teens in Europe and the US is about the same, but teen pregnancy rates are higher in the US due to reluctance to use birth or less ability to access birth control. Girls who take the pill in the US are "sluts" because they planned it. Girls who are swept away with emotion are in the clear morally because it is "love." The US also has a lot of hangups about abortion and barriers to accessing it. There are social settings where "good girls": A) Do not use birth control, especially if they are unmarried. B) Serve the sexual needs of their man. C) Do not get abortions because it is baby murder. Etc. Ad nauseum. It is a recipe for disaster for the girl and there is no socially acceptable escape from it -- unless some " asshole" male authority figure kindly gives you an out where you can say "Look, ma, I took the deal to come home to my kid 30 days early. I am trying to be a good parent here. Not my fault the judge is an asshole." Good authority figures accept that doing the right thing means taking the blame for it when people don't like it. It is part of the job. (Edit: some stats may be out of date because I am an old woman. The general principle still applies.)
- fixxer 9y agoI suggest reading about http://www.projectprevention.org http://www.projectprevention.org for a less coercive version of the same concept.