7 ms·

I had my first dating experiences in life online, and then I met a couple of girls "normally". (Relationships are few and far between for me, and I have to work

I had my first dating experiences in life online, and then I met a couple of girls "normally". (Relationships are few and far between for me, and I have to work at getting one and it takes a year or two and finding one is by far the hardest problem I've ever had to solve in my life). I'm trying online again, and the contrast is extremely stark. There is nothing in any other experience in life that has made me think of myself as an unwanted commodity item quite so much as this. As a man in my thirties who is below average in height (5'8) I fight against about 25% to 75% numbers, and the women seem almost universally to be working extra carefully to exclude me and almost always come across as extremely entitled, both in written and in unwritten ways. And I can't blame them for it! They just understand the economics of scarcity, apparently. Despite being reasonably successful in life and being in the best physical shape I've ever been (10% bodyfat or so, can barely see my abs, can bench press 185 for 8 reps at bodyweight of 155), I seem completely uninteresting to women in a nearly universal way without much I can do to change this. There are no doubt some men who succeed fantastically in this environment, but it seems that for someone like me to do so, I would need to, very much, be conscious of playing the game and pretty much doing anything but presenting an unashamed and straightforward version of self-expression. Since I consider it to be the core of my character to neither accept or deal out bullshit from anyone, but to seek the direct truth, this is a problem. This is in contrast to where I've actually had success with women in the past - amateur classical singing and opera. There the population is about 75% women, with many of the men being gay. There, I can get a taste of what dating is like for the rest of the world - I didn't have to play some stupid hyper-masculinized pursuer who throws semi-sincere interest at a hundred women until one of them returns a peep, but situations actually can develop somewhat symmetrically and organically. Clearly the answer for me is to get back into a world like that, despite not being very interested anymore for any other reason. (My passion these days is programming and development.) Anyway, this turned into a big rant, but I've been single for a year, face the prospect of a few more, and it does get to me.

bokonist 16y ago
There are no doubt some men who succeed fantastically in this environment, but it seems that for someone like me to do so, I would need to, very much, be conscious of playing the game and pretty much doing anything but presenting an unashamed and straightforward version of self-expression. Since I consider it to be the core of my character to neither accept or deal out bullshit from anyone, but to seek the direct truth, this is a problem. If you have attitude that you're not going to make any changes to yourself in order to land women, than you're not going to land women. And why should women want to date you if your not willing to make the step? Women don't want direct and straightforward. They want charm, mystery, excitement. For one trite example, When I'm commenting on some nerdy web forum, and my girlfriend asks me what I'm doing, I don't say, "I'm chatting on a web forum." I say, "I'm engaging in correspondence" and paint the air of some sophisticated 19th century aristocrat. Or I say, "the same thing I do every night, sweetie, try and take over the world". When you can learn to dress up the mundane aspects of life with fun and charm, you'll find women enjoy being around you a lot more. I used to think "game" was just something for cad's and those who wanted only numbers and notches. But even the most cultured, educated, women wants to be charmed, she wants that psychologically dominant rogue to game her. If you want a great, long term affectionate companion, you need to develop both the personal rapport and shared interests, but also the romantic game/charm that makes her tingle for you.
- WilliamLP 16y ago
  > If you have attitude that you're not going to make any changes to yourself in order to land women, than you're not going to land women. I know! Such would be the definition of insanity and all that. That's why my future plans involve making the best of the strengths and weaknesses I have and who I am, who is someone who refuses to strive to be anybody but the person of my dreams. Women don't like me and I'll live. > Women don't want direct and straightforward. They want charm, mystery, excitement. I know that too. I've read the SS literature and heard Ross Jeffries tapes. The shit works. I don't like people who use it and it's not for me. Bullshit I can detect disgusts me, in both genders. I know the arguments quite well and I know human nature quite well. When you're learning a foreign language, you don't say "Speaking French isn't me" you make the sounds that seem weird at first. However, feeling like I need to spend my whole life making all my conversations with women crafted according to some stupid shit I don't actually feel isn't worth it for me. Yes I'm bitter, and I don't even rant all the time, just in this thread:) > you need to develop both the personal rapport and shared interests, but also the romantic game/charm that makes her tingle for you. Yes I know. But I say no to this, and the anger at the fact that the person of my dreams isn't good enough for a woman will drive me to more success, on my own terms.
  - bokonist 16y ago
    Do you enjoy any sort of recreation, horsing around, pulling pranks, play acting, telling stories, fantasizing, scheming, etc? Or is your life 100% droll and serious? Do you have other interests besides programming - travel, books, movies, anything? You don't have to be a Jersey Shore-like, brainless, bullsh*tter to get girls. I think there is a difference between doing the Ross Jeffries act and spicing up topics you genuinely like with a little bit of excitement.
    - WilliamLP 16y ago
      > Do you enjoy any sort of recreation, horsing around, pulling pranks, play acting, telling stories, fantasizing, scheming, etc? Yes all of that, in a way that isn't appealing to women. The kind of humour I enjoy includes dry self deprecation and obscure and nerdy tech jokes, and I literally am part of the reason why women don't get into computer science jobs. You can actually see the repulsive magnetic fields lines as they form patterns at a distance from me at parties, not quite knowing why they need to move but doing so anyhow. And you know what? I have the personality of leader, and I'm going to develop myself into more of one, and women can just go to guys like you when they want to tingle and shit. > Do you have other interests besides programming - travel, books, movies, anything? No, a little (and I recognize where your usernane is from), yes if I'm sitting with a girl, and some other things that vary over time, including most that are stereotypically male interests. (E.g. I love watching UFC with friends at a bar.) But anyway, I apologize if it appears like I'm playing a version of Eric Berne's game "Why don't you...? yes but...", or ressentiment or glorifying my own powerlessness or whatever. I'm really not after help, though I recognize you and others would sincerely like to provide it. I'm just pointing out that online dating really isn't the best path for everyone, especially for someone like me. I really am likable to some, but I just take a long time to get to know, and it has to be in person over time, and it can't be the sort of whiny entitled women online who are smart enough to understand the economics of scarcity:) My own best strategy will be a two-pronged attack - make a ton more money and get a lot more power (in my view, this is more honest than clowning my way through some speed seduction value elicitation NLP bullshit that revolts me). And along with it get off the internet more and do some things where there is continual interaction with women. Sometimes, I know from experience, even though such things aren't that enjoyable at first, they can take on a life of their own... E.g. the idea that supposedly Sartre got into philosophy to pick up girls.
MrFoof 16y ago
"I would need to, very much, be conscious of playing the game and pretty much doing anything but presenting an unashamed and straightforward version of self-expression." Bingo. You nailed it, and I can say that is the mindset you need. I'm the same height. Similar build (actually a bit thinner). Yet younger. Friends say I'm anything but unattractive, yet the reality is I've always been single. I took a crack at things a few months ago and rather than be straightforward, I use Hugh Gallagher's "Essay 3A" as inspiration for my profile. The entire thing was nothing short of a farce. I couldn't of taken it any less seriously aside from the fact that it was genuinely funny. I received eighteen first contacts within the first week. This is nothing new. Usually I get annoyed, put up something ridiculous, and in come the results. Or if I do contact someone, I write something incredibly brief or incredibly goofy and then start to get replies. Did any of them pan out this time? No. Ultimately it resulted in three different dates all of which went bad enough to turn me off of dating for another year. However my point is women don't care for straight-forwardness. At all.
Goladus 16y ago
My first recommendation is to try creating social situations yourself. Instead of spending time in the gym working on your bench press, plan a bike trip or a hike and invite friends. Have dinner parties at your house. Basically: create an environment that a woman would like anyway, whether you were there or not, and invite her into it. That being said, if you are in the Boston area and are interested in getting back into classical singing and opera I can probably help out.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
- keefe 16y ago
  nnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooo mixing lying and sex is a horrible idea that is the cause of much unhappiness in our society. As a 6'3 / 180lbs fellow? They might not say to you they care, but I've sure heard a lot of "pfew, thank god you weren't lying"
keefe 16y ago
How many people do you talk to? It can take hundreds of attempted contacts to hit one winner. >without much I can do to change this. Dude, you're fit. Many, many women will be down with this. If you're not extremely ugly, it's behavioral so this just means it's time for introspection. You don't have to play the game, you have to avoid obviously offensive things, contact a lot of people and be VERY selective about who you waste your time on. You could spend your whole life trying to chat up 18-22 yo 8-10 looks girls or with lots of correspondence to someone you don't really like, that doesn't mean it's a solid idea (or that you are doing this, just an example)
bootload 16y ago
"... This is in contrast to where I've actually had success with women in the past - amateur classical singing and opera. There the population is about 75% women, with many of the men being gay. There, I can get a taste of what dating is like for the rest of the world ..." This is a very accurate observation. I remember reading a news article, "So You Think You Can Cancel Me?" ~ http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/10/2815250.htm http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/10/2815250.htm this year making the same claim. "... Rock Eisteddfod didn't just provide emasculated nerds with an alternative to the Jock Eisteddfod that is competitive sport. It meant for a few blissful hours each week, we had the girls to ourselves. Girls who would dance. In tights. To a soundtrack of Jamiroquai. ..."
k7d 16y ago
Online dating can work very well (it has worked for me) but be patient. It will take time until you really get it. Practice, practice, practice. Don't give up if you have no luck right away. There are subtle communication aspects that you can learn as you go, and they make all the difference. And keep away from specialized dating sites. Go with Facebook or any other kind of communication platform that are not invented exclusively for dating. People are just much more natural there. With some practise you can fairly easy figure out if there's a date potential just by looking at a profile.
- klipt 16y ago
  Isn't it considered creepy to contact people on Facebook without knowing them in real life?
lsc 16y ago
I think 95% of 'game' is simply to ask as many women as possible, and to not get discouraged when you get shot down. (personally, I think most of the effectiveness of the 'fast seduction' crap is that it gives you something to focus on besides getting shot down.) Everyone wants something different, and there really is a strong 'right place at the right time' component. A woman who would have rejected you last night might be receptive tonight, etc.. This works, if you just want to get laid. My experience with on line dating was that you needed to differentiate yourself through better writing (and through writing personalized to the profile) and to lower your standards some. (let's be real here. the 'selection pressure' on line is even stronger than real life. You're competing against a hoard of lonely men, all of whom can lie about their stats. So unless you are lying (which really doesn't work to well once you meet) you aren't going to be able to compete on statistics. But really, I think when looking for a 'real relationship' most of the 'pick up spots' are disproportionately loaded with people who are unable or unwilling to sustain a long-term relationship. I mean, that's fine if you are just looking to get laid; but I don't think it's a great filter to use when looking for a relationship.
- potatolicious 16y ago
  Agreed, but I think you're missing something: there doesn't need to be two extremes here. There are more places to meet women than online and nightclubs. Selection pressure is stronger online due to mere demographic differences alone - but there honestly are more places than online.
- tome 16y ago
  Interesting. I had wondered myself whether a large part of the success of "seduction techniques" is that the man using them can blame failure on his incorrect applicatino of the technique, rather than on something intrinsic to himself.
joubert 16y ago
Have you tried speed dating?
DennisP 16y ago
Have you tried the free dating sites, like plentyoffish? I ask because I read an article recently pointing out the economics of paid dating sites, and how it leads nearly every male to have the experience you described. Couldn't find the link again but I think it went something like this: people sign up for the "free" offer, and their profile goes up. But they can't respond until they pay. So you ping a few people, and in a lot of cases don't get a response because they haven't paid yet (but the site doesn't tell you that). Then you ping a few more. As time passes and you broaden your scope, you're no longer sending carefully crafted, personal messages, you're using a shotgun approach. (Or at least, most guys are.) Meanwhile, the women aren't initiating usually, they're letting the guys come to them. Since the guys are all shotgunning, the women are getting flooded. If they're even reading all their messages, they clicking through fast looking for any excuse to reject each one and move on to the next.

bokonist 16y ago

There are no doubt some men who succeed fantastically in this environment, but it seems that for someone like me to do so, I would need to, very much, be conscious of playing the game and pretty much doing anything but presenting an unashamed and straightforward version of self-expression. Since I consider it to be the core of my character to neither accept or deal out bullshit from anyone, but to seek the direct truth, this is a problem. If you have attitude that you're not going to make any changes to yourself in order to land women, than you're not going to land women. And why should women want to date you if your not willing to make the step? Women don't want direct and straightforward. They want charm, mystery, excitement. For one trite example, When I'm commenting on some nerdy web forum, and my girlfriend asks me what I'm doing, I don't say, "I'm chatting on a web forum." I say, "I'm engaging in correspondence" and paint the air of some sophisticated 19th century aristocrat. Or I say, "the same thing I do every night, sweetie, try and take over the world". When you can learn to dress up the mundane aspects of life with fun and charm, you'll find women enjoy being around you a lot more. I used to think "game" was just something for cad's and those who wanted only numbers and notches. But even the most cultured, educated, women wants to be charmed, she wants that psychologically dominant rogue to game her. If you want a great, long term affectionate companion, you need to develop both the personal rapport and shared interests, but also the romantic game/charm that makes her tingle for you.

WilliamLP 16y ago
> If you have attitude that you're not going to make any changes to yourself in order to land women, than you're not going to land women. I know! Such would be the definition of insanity and all that. That's why my future plans involve making the best of the strengths and weaknesses I have and who I am, who is someone who refuses to strive to be anybody but the person of my dreams. Women don't like me and I'll live. > Women don't want direct and straightforward. They want charm, mystery, excitement. I know that too. I've read the SS literature and heard Ross Jeffries tapes. The shit works. I don't like people who use it and it's not for me. Bullshit I can detect disgusts me, in both genders. I know the arguments quite well and I know human nature quite well. When you're learning a foreign language, you don't say "Speaking French isn't me" you make the sounds that seem weird at first. However, feeling like I need to spend my whole life making all my conversations with women crafted according to some stupid shit I don't actually feel isn't worth it for me. Yes I'm bitter, and I don't even rant all the time, just in this thread:) > you need to develop both the personal rapport and shared interests, but also the romantic game/charm that makes her tingle for you. Yes I know. But I say no to this, and the anger at the fact that the person of my dreams isn't good enough for a woman will drive me to more success, on my own terms.
- bokonist 16y ago
  Do you enjoy any sort of recreation, horsing around, pulling pranks, play acting, telling stories, fantasizing, scheming, etc? Or is your life 100% droll and serious? Do you have other interests besides programming - travel, books, movies, anything? You don't have to be a Jersey Shore-like, brainless, bullsh*tter to get girls. I think there is a difference between doing the Ross Jeffries act and spicing up topics you genuinely like with a little bit of excitement.
  - WilliamLP 16y ago
    > Do you enjoy any sort of recreation, horsing around, pulling pranks, play acting, telling stories, fantasizing, scheming, etc? Yes all of that, in a way that isn't appealing to women. The kind of humour I enjoy includes dry self deprecation and obscure and nerdy tech jokes, and I literally am part of the reason why women don't get into computer science jobs. You can actually see the repulsive magnetic fields lines as they form patterns at a distance from me at parties, not quite knowing why they need to move but doing so anyhow. And you know what? I have the personality of leader, and I'm going to develop myself into more of one, and women can just go to guys like you when they want to tingle and shit. > Do you have other interests besides programming - travel, books, movies, anything? No, a little (and I recognize where your usernane is from), yes if I'm sitting with a girl, and some other things that vary over time, including most that are stereotypically male interests. (E.g. I love watching UFC with friends at a bar.) But anyway, I apologize if it appears like I'm playing a version of Eric Berne's game "Why don't you...? yes but...", or ressentiment or glorifying my own powerlessness or whatever. I'm really not after help, though I recognize you and others would sincerely like to provide it. I'm just pointing out that online dating really isn't the best path for everyone, especially for someone like me. I really am likable to some, but I just take a long time to get to know, and it has to be in person over time, and it can't be the sort of whiny entitled women online who are smart enough to understand the economics of scarcity:) My own best strategy will be a two-pronged attack - make a ton more money and get a lot more power (in my view, this is more honest than clowning my way through some speed seduction value elicitation NLP bullshit that revolts me). And along with it get off the internet more and do some things where there is continual interaction with women. Sometimes, I know from experience, even though such things aren't that enjoyable at first, they can take on a life of their own... E.g. the idea that supposedly Sartre got into philosophy to pick up girls.

MrFoof 16y ago

"I would need to, very much, be conscious of playing the game and pretty much doing anything but presenting an unashamed and straightforward version of self-expression." Bingo. You nailed it, and I can say that is the mindset you need. I'm the same height. Similar build (actually a bit thinner). Yet younger. Friends say I'm anything but unattractive, yet the reality is I've always been single. I took a crack at things a few months ago and rather than be straightforward, I use Hugh Gallagher's "Essay 3A" as inspiration for my profile. The entire thing was nothing short of a farce. I couldn't of taken it any less seriously aside from the fact that it was genuinely funny. I received eighteen first contacts within the first week. This is nothing new. Usually I get annoyed, put up something ridiculous, and in come the results. Or if I do contact someone, I write something incredibly brief or incredibly goofy and then start to get replies. Did any of them pan out this time? No. Ultimately it resulted in three different dates all of which went bad enough to turn me off of dating for another year. However my point is women don't care for straight-forwardness. At all.

Goladus 16y ago

My first recommendation is to try creating social situations yourself. Instead of spending time in the gym working on your bench press, plan a bike trip or a hike and invite friends. Have dinner parties at your house. Basically: create an environment that a woman would like anyway, whether you were there or not, and invite her into it. That being said, if you are in the Boston area and are interested in getting back into classical singing and opera I can probably help out.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

keefe 16y ago
nnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooo mixing lying and sex is a horrible idea that is the cause of much unhappiness in our society. As a 6'3 / 180lbs fellow? They might not say to you they care, but I've sure heard a lot of "pfew, thank god you weren't lying"

keefe 16y ago

How many people do you talk to? It can take hundreds of attempted contacts to hit one winner. >without much I can do to change this. Dude, you're fit. Many, many women will be down with this. If you're not extremely ugly, it's behavioral so this just means it's time for introspection. You don't have to play the game, you have to avoid obviously offensive things, contact a lot of people and be VERY selective about who you waste your time on. You could spend your whole life trying to chat up 18-22 yo 8-10 looks girls or with lots of correspondence to someone you don't really like, that doesn't mean it's a solid idea (or that you are doing this, just an example)

bootload 16y ago

"... This is in contrast to where I've actually had success with women in the past - amateur classical singing and opera. There the population is about 75% women, with many of the men being gay. There, I can get a taste of what dating is like for the rest of the world ..." This is a very accurate observation. I remember reading a news article, "So You Think You Can Cancel Me?" ~ http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/10/2815250.htm http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/10/2815250.htm this year making the same claim. "... Rock Eisteddfod didn't just provide emasculated nerds with an alternative to the Jock Eisteddfod that is competitive sport. It meant for a few blissful hours each week, we had the girls to ourselves. Girls who would dance. In tights. To a soundtrack of Jamiroquai. ..."

k7d 16y ago

Online dating can work very well (it has worked for me) but be patient. It will take time until you really get it. Practice, practice, practice. Don't give up if you have no luck right away. There are subtle communication aspects that you can learn as you go, and they make all the difference. And keep away from specialized dating sites. Go with Facebook or any other kind of communication platform that are not invented exclusively for dating. People are just much more natural there. With some practise you can fairly easy figure out if there's a date potential just by looking at a profile.

klipt 16y ago
Isn't it considered creepy to contact people on Facebook without knowing them in real life?

lsc 16y ago

I think 95% of 'game' is simply to ask as many women as possible, and to not get discouraged when you get shot down. (personally, I think most of the effectiveness of the 'fast seduction' crap is that it gives you something to focus on besides getting shot down.) Everyone wants something different, and there really is a strong 'right place at the right time' component. A woman who would have rejected you last night might be receptive tonight, etc.. This works, if you just want to get laid. My experience with on line dating was that you needed to differentiate yourself through better writing (and through writing personalized to the profile) and to lower your standards some. (let's be real here. the 'selection pressure' on line is even stronger than real life. You're competing against a hoard of lonely men, all of whom can lie about their stats. So unless you are lying (which really doesn't work to well once you meet) you aren't going to be able to compete on statistics. But really, I think when looking for a 'real relationship' most of the 'pick up spots' are disproportionately loaded with people who are unable or unwilling to sustain a long-term relationship. I mean, that's fine if you are just looking to get laid; but I don't think it's a great filter to use when looking for a relationship.

potatolicious 16y ago
Agreed, but I think you're missing something: there doesn't need to be two extremes here. There are more places to meet women than online and nightclubs. Selection pressure is stronger online due to mere demographic differences alone - but there honestly are more places than online.
tome 16y ago
Interesting. I had wondered myself whether a large part of the success of "seduction techniques" is that the man using them can blame failure on his incorrect applicatino of the technique, rather than on something intrinsic to himself.

joubert 16y ago

Have you tried speed dating?

DennisP 16y ago

Have you tried the free dating sites, like plentyoffish? I ask because I read an article recently pointing out the economics of paid dating sites, and how it leads nearly every male to have the experience you described. Couldn't find the link again but I think it went something like this: people sign up for the "free" offer, and their profile goes up. But they can't respond until they pay. So you ping a few people, and in a lot of cases don't get a response because they haven't paid yet (but the site doesn't tell you that). Then you ping a few more. As time passes and you broaden your scope, you're no longer sending carefully crafted, personal messages, you're using a shotgun approach. (Or at least, most guys are.) Meanwhile, the women aren't initiating usually, they're letting the guys come to them. Since the guys are all shotgunning, the women are getting flooded. If they're even reading all their messages, they clicking through fast looking for any excuse to reject each one and move on to the next.