5 ms·

> it was overwhelmed by the senseless repetition of long-debunked stereotypical nonsense. This is why what Damore did is important and why having the discussio

> it was overwhelmed by the senseless repetition of long-debunked stereotypical nonsense. This is why what Damore did is important and why having the discussion is important. People like you either mistakenly believe this or are being deliberately manipulative and misleading by claiming the science is settled. In fact, the science is not settled, and if anything it is leaning in Damore's favor. That you and people like you want to believe one thing very much is not a substitute for the actual truth to the rest of us, and never will be.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
>if anything it is leaning in Damore's favor. This isn't true.
- submersiveblue 9y ago
  Sure it is, and a number of scientists in the relevant fields have spoken up and said so. Here's a start for you: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/no-the-google-manifesto-isnt-sexist-or-anti-diversity-its-science/article35903359/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/no-the-google-manife...
  - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
    No it's not. Here's a start: https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-biological-claims-made-in-the-anti-diversity-document-written-by-a-Google-employee-in-August-2017/answer/Suzanne-Sadedin?share=13d40fd1&srid=Q https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...
    - submersiveblue 9y ago
      What's funny about that link is that when she refers to the scientific claims she mostly seems to agree that they are well founded. Apart from that she seems to reading a lot of stuff into the memo that Damore probably wouldn't agree is there, and getting offended. I.e. he is a racist/sexist/alt-right bigot.
      - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
        You mean she agrees that there are differences between men and women? Sure, most people do. But she doesn't agree that there is a basis for the idea that men would make better programmers than women because of something at the biological or genetic level, which is really the contention around Damore's memo. >Apart from that she seems to reading a lot of stuff into the memo that Damore probably wouldn't agree is there, i.e. he is a racist/sexist/alt-right bigot. Well his first interview was with Stefan Molyneux and he's done another with Jordan Peterson. I'm assuming Mike Cernovich and Lauren Southern are next? Come on. The thing about writing a dogwhistling document like his memo is you have to keep your true beliefs secret. By running straight to some of the darlings of the alt-right he's exposed himself a bit and his dogwhistles become clear as exactly that.
        submersiveblue 9y ago
        >men would make better programmers than women because of something at the biological or genetic level, which is really the contention around Damore's memo. Where does he say this? As for the interviewers, so what? Either the claims are supported by the facts or not, who's agenda is served by those facts is an entirely separate issue.
        frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
        I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions. The "and abilities" part is the important bit because it's where he makes a logical leap. So here's what I'm going to ask of you as someone who seems to like Damore's document and likes the scientific process behind it. Can you find me scientific evidence that men are biologically predisposed to have greater tech abilities?
        9y ago
  - BinaryIdiot 9y ago
    You know, every single person on the internet that I've seen argue that the science is solid in the Google memo point to this article in The Globe and Mail. It's bizarre. I've tried to toe the line and not get into the argument as much as I can because, as evidenced by the previous HN thread [1], it's just two sides yelling past each. Some are citing scientific papers stating they are correct (which a single paper does not make), others are arguing based on remembering other scientific papers and virtually no one seems to be an expert but are all commenting as such. What I would like to point out is the article in question isn't very well sourced. It points to "four - academic studies" [2] [3] [4] [5] but none of those are actual studies; they're all replies to a single study (Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic [6]) and none include a methodology to how they came to their reply conclusion as the full text barely contains anything additional to the extract. Now I'm not writing them off as wrong but those are being misrepresented as studies without having the proper information a study or research paper would require. Unless it's available elsewhere? It's unclear at least to me and appears, again to me, as very misleading. Ultimately there is a boat load of research out there. Some of it is going to support the Google memo writing. Some of it will not. Some of it can be used to represent both sides of the argument. I think a better article, should one exist, should be used to defect your viewpoint should you side with the Google memo. Much of science requires a consensus and rock solid testing methodologies and I'm just not seeing that sourced in the article. Again, I am not an expert but this is my impression from this article. Feel free to make any corrections to my statement :) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14952787 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14952787 [2] http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1968.extract http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1968.extract [3] http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1971.extract http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1971.extract [4] http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1966.extract http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1966.extract [5] http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1965.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1965.full.pdf [6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687544/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687544/
    - Spivak 9y ago
      That article is circulated because it showed up here and, unlike a lot of the blogspam, the author has the credentials to have an informed opinion about the current research. Here's another one, but from a Psychologist rather than a neurologist. https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagge...
- fche 9y ago
  Yes, yes yes, the science is settled (tm), after all 97% of scientists agree. And the case is closed. Yupper.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

>if anything it is leaning in Damore's favor. This isn't true.

submersiveblue 9y ago
Sure it is, and a number of scientists in the relevant fields have spoken up and said so. Here's a start for you: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/no-the-google-manifesto-isnt-sexist-or-anti-diversity-its-science/article35903359/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/no-the-google-manife...
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  No it's not. Here's a start: https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-biological-claims-made-in-the-anti-diversity-document-written-by-a-Google-employee-in-August-2017/answer/Suzanne-Sadedin?share=13d40fd1&srid=Q https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...
  - submersiveblue 9y ago
    What's funny about that link is that when she refers to the scientific claims she mostly seems to agree that they are well founded. Apart from that she seems to reading a lot of stuff into the memo that Damore probably wouldn't agree is there, and getting offended. I.e. he is a racist/sexist/alt-right bigot.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
      You mean she agrees that there are differences between men and women? Sure, most people do. But she doesn't agree that there is a basis for the idea that men would make better programmers than women because of something at the biological or genetic level, which is really the contention around Damore's memo. >Apart from that she seems to reading a lot of stuff into the memo that Damore probably wouldn't agree is there, i.e. he is a racist/sexist/alt-right bigot. Well his first interview was with Stefan Molyneux and he's done another with Jordan Peterson. I'm assuming Mike Cernovich and Lauren Southern are next? Come on. The thing about writing a dogwhistling document like his memo is you have to keep your true beliefs secret. By running straight to some of the darlings of the alt-right he's exposed himself a bit and his dogwhistles become clear as exactly that.
      - submersiveblue 9y ago
        >men would make better programmers than women because of something at the biological or genetic level, which is really the contention around Damore's memo. Where does he say this? As for the interviewers, so what? Either the claims are supported by the facts or not, who's agenda is served by those facts is an entirely separate issue.
        frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
        I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions. The "and abilities" part is the important bit because it's where he makes a logical leap. So here's what I'm going to ask of you as someone who seems to like Damore's document and likes the scientific process behind it. Can you find me scientific evidence that men are biologically predisposed to have greater tech abilities?
        9y ago
- BinaryIdiot 9y ago
  You know, every single person on the internet that I've seen argue that the science is solid in the Google memo point to this article in The Globe and Mail. It's bizarre. I've tried to toe the line and not get into the argument as much as I can because, as evidenced by the previous HN thread [1], it's just two sides yelling past each. Some are citing scientific papers stating they are correct (which a single paper does not make), others are arguing based on remembering other scientific papers and virtually no one seems to be an expert but are all commenting as such. What I would like to point out is the article in question isn't very well sourced. It points to "four - academic studies" [2] [3] [4] [5] but none of those are actual studies; they're all replies to a single study (Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic [6]) and none include a methodology to how they came to their reply conclusion as the full text barely contains anything additional to the extract. Now I'm not writing them off as wrong but those are being misrepresented as studies without having the proper information a study or research paper would require. Unless it's available elsewhere? It's unclear at least to me and appears, again to me, as very misleading. Ultimately there is a boat load of research out there. Some of it is going to support the Google memo writing. Some of it will not. Some of it can be used to represent both sides of the argument. I think a better article, should one exist, should be used to defect your viewpoint should you side with the Google memo. Much of science requires a consensus and rock solid testing methodologies and I'm just not seeing that sourced in the article. Again, I am not an expert but this is my impression from this article. Feel free to make any corrections to my statement :) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14952787 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14952787 [2] http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1968.extract http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1968.extract [3] http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1971.extract http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1971.extract [4] http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1966.extract http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1966.extract [5] http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1965.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1965.full.pdf [6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687544/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687544/
  - Spivak 9y ago
    That article is circulated because it showed up here and, unlike a lot of the blogspam, the author has the credentials to have an informed opinion about the current research. Here's another one, but from a Psychologist rather than a neurologist. https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagge...
fche 9y ago
Yes, yes yes, the science is settled (tm), after all 97% of scientists agree. And the case is closed. Yupper.