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I personally find the whole "Goolag" thing ridiculous. I've had relatives (great grandparents/uncles/aunts) in the USSR who were removed from their homes in the

I personally find the whole "Goolag" thing ridiculous. I've had relatives (great grandparents/uncles/aunts) in the USSR who were removed from their homes in the middle of the night by the government. One was even shot/killed. Getting fired from your high-paying job to go off and get another high-paying job, after you spent numerous hours writing some controversial BS about women/hiring instead of, you know, doing your actual job, is not anywhere close to the type of persecution people have faced in the past - so let's please not pretend it is.

where_do_i_live 9y ago
Man everyone's a victim nowadays?
ardit33 9y ago
Alright, let me chime in: For people that were less political danger, they usually were fired for "Political Incorrectness" and "Agitation and Propaganda", sent to re-education classes, and only given shitty job opportunities from now then. It was a convenient way to keep the less dangerous masses at bay. If "being conservative" becomes a "fireable" offense in most large tech valleys, then we are in a path to similar stances. Now, here where I disagree with the memo in general (it didn't seem constructive), I disagree with the way google handled the whole situation overall. Anyway, this whole episode (if you are not a feminist you are the enemy stance and the black list that managers at google have) starts smelling more of a McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism For people that just want to do their job and don't want to get involved in these discussions you almost are forced to do something, otherwise you are an evil/enemy/suppressor/whatever else. That bothers me, as I lived under communism and have lived the results of blind ideology.
- vilmosi 9y ago
  > If "being conservative" becomes a "fireable" offense in most large tech valleys, then we are in a path to similar stances It's not similar. It's not even remotely similar, that's what you don't get.
  - trhway 9y ago
    I wonder what your "credentials" are to speak on the subject. I grew up in the USSR. During 195x my grandfather and grandmother together with their 5 children did a number of years in a low security camp at the Russian North cutting timber. >It's not similar. It's not even remotely similar, that's what you don't get. It looks similar to me, very similar (and i'm ok with it because it is against conservatives this time).
    - vilmosi 9y ago
      I was born in communist Eastern Europe and grew up in the years immediately afterwards. What's your point. It's still not even remotely similar.
    - nostrademons 9y ago
      I think a big difference between the USA and the USSR is that in the USA, everybody hates on their countrymen and thinks that the rest of the country is full of shit, while my understanding of the USSR is that you could only do this if you were relatively powerful. In the USA, no matter how offensive you are, you can find someone who agrees with you. Mr. Damore has already been offered a job by Wikileaks. He's making the media rounds. He's being hailed as a hero by Breitbart and other right-wing talk shows. Chances are, he's not going to have trouble finding another job.
      - trhway 9y ago
        man, the fact that a witch hunt didn't result in the target becoming poor/homeless/imprisoned/mob-beaten, etc. doesn't make it to be not a witch hunt. It is just a result of not everybody participating in the witch hunt. As you pointed out, the US society is [God bless that] far from being single-minded/totalitarian , and thus it is hard to make everybody to participate in the same witch hunt.
        nostrademons 9y ago
        That's basically how America works, though. We still have witch hunts - hell, we had the original New World witch hunt in 1692 - because we're human and humans are little shits to people they don't like. The beauty of America is that you can always find a bigger shit who doesn't like the little shits who are beating you up, and nobody will stop you from going and hanging out with them (well, except in the public school system, the most fucked up part of America).
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  Why are we drawing the connection that he was fired for being a conservative? Tons and tons of people in the valley are their own special breed of techno-libertarian and they seem to be totally secure in their jobs. He was fired for being political at work. Don't be political at work. No one wants someone walking around their workplace talking about the evils of abortion. No one wants your coworker to ask if you'll sign an ACLU petition on trans rights while you're microwaving your pasta. No one wants to sit down at their email and see something like FW: My Thoughts on Women and the Workplace with Damore's pdf attached.
  - kbenson 9y ago
    > He was fired for being political at work. Don't be political at work. Well, more specifically, I think he was fired for being political in a way that caught outside attention and caused bad PR. Plenty of people are political at work, whether they be work politics or otherwise. This is a "You made the company have to weigh in on something that is way over your pay grade, and that's not something we're going to take a chance happening again with you." Executives and boards don't like when they have to stop what they're doing and put out a PR fire started by a low rank employee, whether that employee expected that outcome or not. That the firing of the employee causing problems at the executive level coincides with a way to combat the PR just makes the decision all that much easier.
    - ivoras 9y ago
      Whoa, there - doesn't the fact that a low ranking employee, to use the phrase, can cause a global scale shitstorm, mean that just maybe, there are actually problems which were swept under the rug for too long?
      - kbenson 9y ago
        Not necessarily. All that person has to do is tap into a controversial topic that divides people and involves the company. E.g. "Big pharma researcher says our system is killing people." If it wasn't already done and old news, if it happened to get traction we'd have the same situation. And let's not kid ourselves, he's probably not the first there to state this or even the first to share his views. He is the first that had it turn into big news because it went viral, but content isn't the only factor in something going viral.
- jcranberry 9y ago
  You're right of course, but in particular the "Goolag" thing was pretty ridiculous.
  - mrisoli 9y ago
    I have the same feeling, regardless of whether his claim makes any sense or not, "meme-fying" the company and the underlying subject only makes his argument less substantial IMO.
    - fche 9y ago
      you underestimate the power of memes
      - croon 9y ago
        I think they're arguing about rationality, not populist effectiveness.
- threatofrain 9y ago
  But religious freedom, being applied as the ability to employ, be employed, or to provide service without fear of religious violation or indignity, is something American conservatives are arguing for at the moment, and that includes the ability to fire or not serve homosexuals. How else am I supposed to create a Christian establishment, such as school for K-12 children? What if it's part of my wholesome Christian values and worldview to create a healthy environment where children can learn, free of homosexual influence?
dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
BTW I feel the same about calling Trump a "Nazi". For people whose family members have been killed by the Nazi, it sounds like mockery.
- kbenson 9y ago
  I agree, calling Trump a Nazi is both egregious and it also lessens any coherent argument about similarities between the populism of Trump's base and the beginnings of the Nazi party (not to imply too much similarity, but there is some). The Nazi label should not be trotted out without cause, but should be called into intelligent discussion where warranted. It seems we currently vacillate between using it too easily and too conservatively (Godwin's law). The real problem is that both those extremes contribute to a system in which we believe a similar thing could never happen again by viewing them and their actions as distinct from us and what we are capable of, when there is no distinction. Closely related to the maxim that those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it is that those that view themselves as distinct from history are also doomed to repeat it. :/
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > (Godwin's law) Does anyone actually know what Godwin's Law says these days? I rarely see anyone mentioning it correctly. Also Mr Godwin himself has come out and said "Call them Nazis" which somewhat voids the whole "Ooh, Godwin" nonsense.
    - kbenson 9y ago
      Well, I think it was never meant to stop people from calling out real parallels, just those egregious uses where it was inappropriate and used only for shock value. Even the more benign uses of the term probably have some eroding effect on its potency, even if small. "grammar nazi" comes to mind. People sometimes refer to themselves that way somewhat affectionately. We don't see people using "pedophile" the same way. I can't say I think Godwin's original complaint was wrong.
      - 9y ago
Grue3 9y ago
I have no problem with it. It spreads awareness about the atrocities of communists. People get compared to Nazis all the time, because Nazi=bad is something that almost everyone agrees on. Meanwhile there are a lot of unironic communists in tech circles and everyone's okay with it. So next time you compare somebody to Hitler, consider using Stalin instead.
hungerstrike 9y ago
> so let's please not pretend it is... Was anyone actually pretending that it is? There's a thing called hyperbole and it works really well when you take your fight to the media.

where_do_i_live 9y ago

Man everyone's a victim nowadays?

ardit33 9y ago

Alright, let me chime in: For people that were less political danger, they usually were fired for "Political Incorrectness" and "Agitation and Propaganda", sent to re-education classes, and only given shitty job opportunities from now then. It was a convenient way to keep the less dangerous masses at bay. If "being conservative" becomes a "fireable" offense in most large tech valleys, then we are in a path to similar stances. Now, here where I disagree with the memo in general (it didn't seem constructive), I disagree with the way google handled the whole situation overall. Anyway, this whole episode (if you are not a feminist you are the enemy stance and the black list that managers at google have) starts smelling more of a McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism For people that just want to do their job and don't want to get involved in these discussions you almost are forced to do something, otherwise you are an evil/enemy/suppressor/whatever else. That bothers me, as I lived under communism and have lived the results of blind ideology.

vilmosi 9y ago
> If "being conservative" becomes a "fireable" offense in most large tech valleys, then we are in a path to similar stances It's not similar. It's not even remotely similar, that's what you don't get.
- trhway 9y ago
  I wonder what your "credentials" are to speak on the subject. I grew up in the USSR. During 195x my grandfather and grandmother together with their 5 children did a number of years in a low security camp at the Russian North cutting timber. >It's not similar. It's not even remotely similar, that's what you don't get. It looks similar to me, very similar (and i'm ok with it because it is against conservatives this time).
  - vilmosi 9y ago
    I was born in communist Eastern Europe and grew up in the years immediately afterwards. What's your point. It's still not even remotely similar.
  - nostrademons 9y ago
    I think a big difference between the USA and the USSR is that in the USA, everybody hates on their countrymen and thinks that the rest of the country is full of shit, while my understanding of the USSR is that you could only do this if you were relatively powerful. In the USA, no matter how offensive you are, you can find someone who agrees with you. Mr. Damore has already been offered a job by Wikileaks. He's making the media rounds. He's being hailed as a hero by Breitbart and other right-wing talk shows. Chances are, he's not going to have trouble finding another job.
    - trhway 9y ago
      man, the fact that a witch hunt didn't result in the target becoming poor/homeless/imprisoned/mob-beaten, etc. doesn't make it to be not a witch hunt. It is just a result of not everybody participating in the witch hunt. As you pointed out, the US society is [God bless that] far from being single-minded/totalitarian , and thus it is hard to make everybody to participate in the same witch hunt.
      - nostrademons 9y ago
        That's basically how America works, though. We still have witch hunts - hell, we had the original New World witch hunt in 1692 - because we're human and humans are little shits to people they don't like. The beauty of America is that you can always find a bigger shit who doesn't like the little shits who are beating you up, and nobody will stop you from going and hanging out with them (well, except in the public school system, the most fucked up part of America).
frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
Why are we drawing the connection that he was fired for being a conservative? Tons and tons of people in the valley are their own special breed of techno-libertarian and they seem to be totally secure in their jobs. He was fired for being political at work. Don't be political at work. No one wants someone walking around their workplace talking about the evils of abortion. No one wants your coworker to ask if you'll sign an ACLU petition on trans rights while you're microwaving your pasta. No one wants to sit down at their email and see something like FW: My Thoughts on Women and the Workplace with Damore's pdf attached.
- kbenson 9y ago
  > He was fired for being political at work. Don't be political at work. Well, more specifically, I think he was fired for being political in a way that caught outside attention and caused bad PR. Plenty of people are political at work, whether they be work politics or otherwise. This is a "You made the company have to weigh in on something that is way over your pay grade, and that's not something we're going to take a chance happening again with you." Executives and boards don't like when they have to stop what they're doing and put out a PR fire started by a low rank employee, whether that employee expected that outcome or not. That the firing of the employee causing problems at the executive level coincides with a way to combat the PR just makes the decision all that much easier.
  - ivoras 9y ago
    Whoa, there - doesn't the fact that a low ranking employee, to use the phrase, can cause a global scale shitstorm, mean that just maybe, there are actually problems which were swept under the rug for too long?
    - kbenson 9y ago
      Not necessarily. All that person has to do is tap into a controversial topic that divides people and involves the company. E.g. "Big pharma researcher says our system is killing people." If it wasn't already done and old news, if it happened to get traction we'd have the same situation. And let's not kid ourselves, he's probably not the first there to state this or even the first to share his views. He is the first that had it turn into big news because it went viral, but content isn't the only factor in something going viral.
jcranberry 9y ago
You're right of course, but in particular the "Goolag" thing was pretty ridiculous.
- mrisoli 9y ago
  I have the same feeling, regardless of whether his claim makes any sense or not, "meme-fying" the company and the underlying subject only makes his argument less substantial IMO.
  - fche 9y ago
    you underestimate the power of memes
    - croon 9y ago
      I think they're arguing about rationality, not populist effectiveness.
threatofrain 9y ago
But religious freedom, being applied as the ability to employ, be employed, or to provide service without fear of religious violation or indignity, is something American conservatives are arguing for at the moment, and that includes the ability to fire or not serve homosexuals. How else am I supposed to create a Christian establishment, such as school for K-12 children? What if it's part of my wholesome Christian values and worldview to create a healthy environment where children can learn, free of homosexual influence?

dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago

BTW I feel the same about calling Trump a "Nazi". For people whose family members have been killed by the Nazi, it sounds like mockery.

kbenson 9y ago
I agree, calling Trump a Nazi is both egregious and it also lessens any coherent argument about similarities between the populism of Trump's base and the beginnings of the Nazi party (not to imply too much similarity, but there is some). The Nazi label should not be trotted out without cause, but should be called into intelligent discussion where warranted. It seems we currently vacillate between using it too easily and too conservatively (Godwin's law). The real problem is that both those extremes contribute to a system in which we believe a similar thing could never happen again by viewing them and their actions as distinct from us and what we are capable of, when there is no distinction. Closely related to the maxim that those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it is that those that view themselves as distinct from history are also doomed to repeat it. :/
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > (Godwin's law) Does anyone actually know what Godwin's Law says these days? I rarely see anyone mentioning it correctly. Also Mr Godwin himself has come out and said "Call them Nazis" which somewhat voids the whole "Ooh, Godwin" nonsense.
  - kbenson 9y ago
    Well, I think it was never meant to stop people from calling out real parallels, just those egregious uses where it was inappropriate and used only for shock value. Even the more benign uses of the term probably have some eroding effect on its potency, even if small. "grammar nazi" comes to mind. People sometimes refer to themselves that way somewhat affectionately. We don't see people using "pedophile" the same way. I can't say I think Godwin's original complaint was wrong.
    - 9y ago

Grue3 9y ago

I have no problem with it. It spreads awareness about the atrocities of communists. People get compared to Nazis all the time, because Nazi=bad is something that almost everyone agrees on. Meanwhile there are a lot of unironic communists in tech circles and everyone's okay with it. So next time you compare somebody to Hitler, consider using Stalin instead.

hungerstrike 9y ago

> so let's please not pretend it is... Was anyone actually pretending that it is? There's a thing called hyperbole and it works really well when you take your fight to the media.