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https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-refutation-of-the-google-memo-b7201d0cca04 https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-ref

https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-refutation-of-the-google-memo-b7201d0cca04 https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-ref...

beaner 9y ago
While I think a reasonable rebuttal to the memo could be made, the assumptions at the beginning of this article are so obviously missing the point of the memo that it's hard to see justifying reading the rest of it. Many people do make those assumptions, but I don't think you can honestly parse the original memo and believe that it was truly biased by, or literally promotes, those ideas.
- milcron 9y ago
  Is Damore not saying that it would take "authoritarian" measures to get the gender ratio to 50/50? The assumptions are stated bluntly, but I don't find them inaccurate. The rebuttal gets off to a rocky start, but each assumption is explained. If you object to a particular one, please point it out.
zbobet2012 9y ago
Oh lord that's note even close to a good rebuttal. Mostly because it starts off with a list of "sexist" assumptions, some of which don't even tangentially relate to the memo. What the article says: > Sexist assumption 6: Gender bias is not a real issue. Anyone who thinks so is blinded by political bias. What the memo says: > Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole story. Literally, can anyone argue against the guy without misrepresenting and demonizing his argument? I don't even agree with him and find this stuff head-ache inducing.
- milcron 9y ago
  Also from the memo: > We have extensive government and Google programs, fields of study, and legal and social norms to protect women, but when a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men, he’s labelled as a misogynist and whiner[10]. "Gender issue issue", as in complaining that gender issues are taken too seriously? Damore kept saying he acknowledges that sexism exists, but none of his suggestions actually address it. It's as though he paid just it enough lip service to scrape by. The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities. I agree the rebuttal gets off to a rocky start because the assumptions seem hyperbolic. It gets better by the end, as each one is explained.
  - zbobet2012 9y ago
    > "When a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men" > > In no way is that referring to "complaining that gender issues are taken too seriously?" Read the link cited with that sentence and you might understand it better. That also is a complete misreading of that sentence. It is saying that gender issues which affect men are not taken seriously and are discarded. To quote the associated sources TL;DR Both genders have issues Also: > The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities. Let me emphasize the TL;DR from the memo for you, since you have seemed to miss it. Differences in distributions of traits between men and women ***may in part explain*** why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. Honest question, why is it so hard to accept that his position might be nuanced?
    - milcron 9y ago
      > Read the link cited with that sentence and you might understand it better. It is saying that gender issues which affect men are not taken seriously and are discarded. I wonder what gender issue Damore found himself facing. Homelessness? Murder? And when he raised those issues he was labeled a misogynist? That doesn't seem to fit. It's hard to accept that there is nuance in the memo, because it's only found in broad sentences like this one: > Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. There's nothing wrong with this sentence. The trouble is that he never concretely addresses reasons for the gender gap other than innate traits. There is some nuance in his memo, but there isn't enough. What about all these documented biases? Surely these are affecting womens' careers too: * Men get better assignments. https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-roundup https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-ro... * People assume mothers to be inherently less competent and less committed than fathers. https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-roundup https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-ro... * Women negotiate as often as men, but face pushback when they do. https://womenintheworkplace.com/ https://womenintheworkplace.com/ * Women get less access to senior leaders. https://womenintheworkplace.com/ https://womenintheworkplace.com/ * Women ask for feedback as often as men, but are less likely to receive it. https://womenintheworkplace.com/ https://womenintheworkplace.com/ * Women get less useful feedback than men. https://hbr.org/2016/04/research-vague-feedback-is-holding-women-back https://hbr.org/2016/04/research-vague-feedback-is-holding-w... * Women get criticized more than men. http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/ http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias... * Women are more frequently characterized as “too agressive”. https://www.wsj.com/articles/gender-bias-at-work-turns-up-in-feedback-1443600759 https://www.wsj.com/articles/gender-bias-at-work-turns-up-in... * Women leaders face higher standards and lower rewards than men leaders. http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind * Women leaders are perceived as competent or liked, but rarely both. http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind * Women’s code is accepted more often than men’s, but only if gender is hidden. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35559439 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35559439 Sure, he says that innate traits are only part of the cause. But the rest of his essay implies they are the primary cause.

https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-refutation-of-the-google-memo-b7201d0cca04 https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-ref...

beaner 9y ago

While I think a reasonable rebuttal to the memo could be made, the assumptions at the beginning of this article are so obviously missing the point of the memo that it's hard to see justifying reading the rest of it. Many people do make those assumptions, but I don't think you can honestly parse the original memo and believe that it was truly biased by, or literally promotes, those ideas.

milcron 9y ago
Is Damore not saying that it would take "authoritarian" measures to get the gender ratio to 50/50? The assumptions are stated bluntly, but I don't find them inaccurate. The rebuttal gets off to a rocky start, but each assumption is explained. If you object to a particular one, please point it out.

zbobet2012 9y ago

Oh lord that's note even close to a good rebuttal. Mostly because it starts off with a list of "sexist" assumptions, some of which don't even tangentially relate to the memo. What the article says: > Sexist assumption 6: Gender bias is not a real issue. Anyone who thinks so is blinded by political bias. What the memo says: > Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole story. Literally, can anyone argue against the guy without misrepresenting and demonizing his argument? I don't even agree with him and find this stuff head-ache inducing.

milcron 9y ago
Also from the memo: > We have extensive government and Google programs, fields of study, and legal and social norms to protect women, but when a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men, he’s labelled as a misogynist and whiner[10]. "Gender issue issue", as in complaining that gender issues are taken too seriously? Damore kept saying he acknowledges that sexism exists, but none of his suggestions actually address it. It's as though he paid just it enough lip service to scrape by. The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities. I agree the rebuttal gets off to a rocky start because the assumptions seem hyperbolic. It gets better by the end, as each one is explained.
- zbobet2012 9y ago
  > "When a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men" > > In no way is that referring to "complaining that gender issues are taken too seriously?" Read the link cited with that sentence and you might understand it better. That also is a complete misreading of that sentence. It is saying that gender issues which affect men are not taken seriously and are discarded. To quote the associated sources TL;DR Both genders have issues Also: > The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities. Let me emphasize the TL;DR from the memo for you, since you have seemed to miss it. Differences in distributions of traits between men and women ***may in part explain*** why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. Honest question, why is it so hard to accept that his position might be nuanced?
  - milcron 9y ago
    > Read the link cited with that sentence and you might understand it better. It is saying that gender issues which affect men are not taken seriously and are discarded. I wonder what gender issue Damore found himself facing. Homelessness? Murder? And when he raised those issues he was labeled a misogynist? That doesn't seem to fit. It's hard to accept that there is nuance in the memo, because it's only found in broad sentences like this one: > Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. There's nothing wrong with this sentence. The trouble is that he never concretely addresses reasons for the gender gap other than innate traits. There is some nuance in his memo, but there isn't enough. What about all these documented biases? Surely these are affecting womens' careers too: * Men get better assignments. https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-roundup https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-ro... * People assume mothers to be inherently less competent and less committed than fathers. https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-roundup https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-ro... * Women negotiate as often as men, but face pushback when they do. https://womenintheworkplace.com/ https://womenintheworkplace.com/ * Women get less access to senior leaders. https://womenintheworkplace.com/ https://womenintheworkplace.com/ * Women ask for feedback as often as men, but are less likely to receive it. https://womenintheworkplace.com/ https://womenintheworkplace.com/ * Women get less useful feedback than men. https://hbr.org/2016/04/research-vague-feedback-is-holding-women-back https://hbr.org/2016/04/research-vague-feedback-is-holding-w... * Women get criticized more than men. http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/ http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias... * Women are more frequently characterized as “too agressive”. https://www.wsj.com/articles/gender-bias-at-work-turns-up-in-feedback-1443600759 https://www.wsj.com/articles/gender-bias-at-work-turns-up-in... * Women leaders face higher standards and lower rewards than men leaders. http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind * Women leaders are perceived as competent or liked, but rarely both. http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind * Women’s code is accepted more often than men’s, but only if gender is hidden. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35559439 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35559439 Sure, he says that innate traits are only part of the cause. But the rest of his essay implies they are the primary cause.