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There's a lot of hypocrisy around this individual. If he were a woman facing termination for speaking out about something, then people would be referring to thi

There's a lot of hypocrisy around this individual. If he were a woman facing termination for speaking out about something, then people would be referring to this media tour as "attention whoring." Instead this is being given the context of somehow speaking out against some kind of oppression. No matter where you stand on the issue, he disseminated a company wide memo criticizing the company-wide hiring practices in a preachy way that didnt leave room for the company to answer back. In what company would that not be labeled insubordination?

dsfjksdf 9y ago
Yes, because women speaking up about issues in tech never get any platform at all. "Attention whoring" is definitely the standard reaction.
pooh_smear 9y ago
Susan fowler. If you want to bring up differences in response, the difference in media response is interesting.
adamiscool8 9y ago
From my reading it actually left a ton of room for an equally well-measured rebuttal, which I have yet to see.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- milcron 9y ago
  https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-refutation-of-the-google-memo-b7201d0cca04 https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-ref...
  - beaner 9y ago
    While I think a reasonable rebuttal to the memo could be made, the assumptions at the beginning of this article are so obviously missing the point of the memo that it's hard to see justifying reading the rest of it. Many people do make those assumptions, but I don't think you can honestly parse the original memo and believe that it was truly biased by, or literally promotes, those ideas.
    - milcron 9y ago
      Is Damore not saying that it would take "authoritarian" measures to get the gender ratio to 50/50? The assumptions are stated bluntly, but I don't find them inaccurate. The rebuttal gets off to a rocky start, but each assumption is explained. If you object to a particular one, please point it out.
  - zbobet2012 9y ago
    Oh lord that's note even close to a good rebuttal. Mostly because it starts off with a list of "sexist" assumptions, some of which don't even tangentially relate to the memo. What the article says: > Sexist assumption 6: Gender bias is not a real issue. Anyone who thinks so is blinded by political bias. What the memo says: > Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole story. Literally, can anyone argue against the guy without misrepresenting and demonizing his argument? I don't even agree with him and find this stuff head-ache inducing.
    - milcron 9y ago
      Also from the memo: > We have extensive government and Google programs, fields of study, and legal and social norms to protect women, but when a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men, he’s labelled as a misogynist and whiner[10]. "Gender issue issue", as in complaining that gender issues are taken too seriously? Damore kept saying he acknowledges that sexism exists, but none of his suggestions actually address it. It's as though he paid just it enough lip service to scrape by. The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities. I agree the rebuttal gets off to a rocky start because the assumptions seem hyperbolic. It gets better by the end, as each one is explained.
      - zbobet2012 9y ago
        > "When a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men" > > In no way is that referring to "complaining that gender issues are taken too seriously?" Read the link cited with that sentence and you might understand it better. That also is a complete misreading of that sentence. It is saying that gender issues which affect men are not taken seriously and are discarded. To quote the associated sources TL;DR Both genders have issues Also: > The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities. Let me emphasize the TL;DR from the memo for you, since you have seemed to miss it. Differences in distributions of traits between men and women ***may in part explain*** why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. Honest question, why is it so hard to accept that his position might be nuanced?
optimuspaul 9y ago
no, I think this is attention whoring even more so. This is a guy who wrote a document about a subject he was not at all qualified to write.
- dsfjksdf 9y ago
  The horror. Where should people turn to get their approval stamps before they are allowed to write documents? Is it only bad to write about things, or should thinking about things also be frowned upon? Where can I get a list of safe, government approved topics to think about?
  - optimuspaul 9y ago
    From the straw men of course.
tengbretson 9y ago
What media tour? I have yet to see any news organizations interview in him either in person or in print. Honestly, I have yet to even see a news organization publish verbatim excerpts from his memo.
- mgiannopoulos 9y ago
  This thread is about his article in WSJ. He did an interview on Bloomberg and a couple of YouTube channels https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2017/08/10/fired-google-engineer-james-damores-media-tour-not-likely-to-help-his-legal-case/amp/ https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/clareoco... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/09/james-damore-google-memo-youtube-interviews https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technolog...
kingbirdy 9y ago
It was submitted to an internal mailing list specifically requesting comments on Google's diversity programs
alpsgolden 9y ago
"he disseminated a company wide memo criticizing the company-wide hiring practices in a preachy way that didnt leave room for the company to answer back." Not true, he distributed the memo on a mailing list called "skeptics." I would like to hear from someone at Google what kind of discussions happen on the "skeptics" list. Have there have been any negative stereotypes about Christians voiced on that mailing list, for instance? Was political discussion normal on that mailing list? Was criticism of Google normal?
beaner 9y ago
I don't think that's true. Plenty of women spoke up against Uber, and they weren't called attention whores, they were lauded (rightly). Of course, you can find instances of James being lauded and of Susan Fowler being called an "attention whore," if you really go searching for them. But neither are the majority, by far.
notliketherest 9y ago
You're arguing against his position using hypotheticals which is an unfair comparison.

dsfjksdf 9y ago

Yes, because women speaking up about issues in tech never get any platform at all. "Attention whoring" is definitely the standard reaction.

pooh_smear 9y ago

Susan fowler. If you want to bring up differences in response, the difference in media response is interesting.

adamiscool8 9y ago

From my reading it actually left a ton of room for an equally well-measured rebuttal, which I have yet to see.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
milcron 9y ago
https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-refutation-of-the-google-memo-b7201d0cca04 https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-ref...
- beaner 9y ago
  While I think a reasonable rebuttal to the memo could be made, the assumptions at the beginning of this article are so obviously missing the point of the memo that it's hard to see justifying reading the rest of it. Many people do make those assumptions, but I don't think you can honestly parse the original memo and believe that it was truly biased by, or literally promotes, those ideas.
  - milcron 9y ago
    Is Damore not saying that it would take "authoritarian" measures to get the gender ratio to 50/50? The assumptions are stated bluntly, but I don't find them inaccurate. The rebuttal gets off to a rocky start, but each assumption is explained. If you object to a particular one, please point it out.
- zbobet2012 9y ago
  Oh lord that's note even close to a good rebuttal. Mostly because it starts off with a list of "sexist" assumptions, some of which don't even tangentially relate to the memo. What the article says: > Sexist assumption 6: Gender bias is not a real issue. Anyone who thinks so is blinded by political bias. What the memo says: > Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole story. Literally, can anyone argue against the guy without misrepresenting and demonizing his argument? I don't even agree with him and find this stuff head-ache inducing.
  - milcron 9y ago
    Also from the memo: > We have extensive government and Google programs, fields of study, and legal and social norms to protect women, but when a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men, he’s labelled as a misogynist and whiner[10]. "Gender issue issue", as in complaining that gender issues are taken too seriously? Damore kept saying he acknowledges that sexism exists, but none of his suggestions actually address it. It's as though he paid just it enough lip service to scrape by. The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities. I agree the rebuttal gets off to a rocky start because the assumptions seem hyperbolic. It gets better by the end, as each one is explained.
    - zbobet2012 9y ago
      > "When a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men" > > In no way is that referring to "complaining that gender issues are taken too seriously?" Read the link cited with that sentence and you might understand it better. That also is a complete misreading of that sentence. It is saying that gender issues which affect men are not taken seriously and are discarded. To quote the associated sources TL;DR Both genders have issues Also: > The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities. Let me emphasize the TL;DR from the memo for you, since you have seemed to miss it. Differences in distributions of traits between men and women ***may in part explain*** why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. Honest question, why is it so hard to accept that his position might be nuanced?

optimuspaul 9y ago

no, I think this is attention whoring even more so. This is a guy who wrote a document about a subject he was not at all qualified to write.

dsfjksdf 9y ago
The horror. Where should people turn to get their approval stamps before they are allowed to write documents? Is it only bad to write about things, or should thinking about things also be frowned upon? Where can I get a list of safe, government approved topics to think about?
- optimuspaul 9y ago
  From the straw men of course.

tengbretson 9y ago

What media tour? I have yet to see any news organizations interview in him either in person or in print. Honestly, I have yet to even see a news organization publish verbatim excerpts from his memo.

mgiannopoulos 9y ago
This thread is about his article in WSJ. He did an interview on Bloomberg and a couple of YouTube channels https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2017/08/10/fired-google-engineer-james-damores-media-tour-not-likely-to-help-his-legal-case/amp/ https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/clareoco... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/09/james-damore-google-memo-youtube-interviews https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technolog...

kingbirdy 9y ago

It was submitted to an internal mailing list specifically requesting comments on Google's diversity programs

alpsgolden 9y ago

"he disseminated a company wide memo criticizing the company-wide hiring practices in a preachy way that didnt leave room for the company to answer back." Not true, he distributed the memo on a mailing list called "skeptics." I would like to hear from someone at Google what kind of discussions happen on the "skeptics" list. Have there have been any negative stereotypes about Christians voiced on that mailing list, for instance? Was political discussion normal on that mailing list? Was criticism of Google normal?

beaner 9y ago

I don't think that's true. Plenty of women spoke up against Uber, and they weren't called attention whores, they were lauded (rightly). Of course, you can find instances of James being lauded and of Susan Fowler being called an "attention whore," if you really go searching for them. But neither are the majority, by far.

notliketherest 9y ago

You're arguing against his position using hypotheticals which is an unfair comparison.