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This, like any argument about the meaning of left and right, is pointless. Nobody can clearly define what those terms mean anyway. Perhaps we can agree The Gua

This, like any argument about the meaning of left and right, is pointless. Nobody can clearly define what those terms mean anyway. Perhaps we can agree The Guardian is centre-left by UK standards and far-left by American standards.

eesmith 9y ago
Like I ask, what Overton window are you looking through? Answer: the US one, where there's been 80 years of anti-communist, anti-socialist propaganda to turn "liberal" and "progressive" into slurs and to keep people from knowing what "the left" really means. The UK standard in this regard is shared with most of the rest of Europe and the European ex-colonies (South America, Australia, South Africa, etc.) It's the US which is the odd-one-out.
- leereeves 9y ago
  > It's the US which is the odd-one-out. Hardly. The US is to the left social democratically and culturally of nearly every country outside Western Europe.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    Irrelevant, because I'm not talking about the politics of the country but the viewpoint of what left/right means.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      So you think you know the viewpoint of everyone in dozens of countries? Arrogant and ignorant.
      - eesmith 9y ago
        I see. When you are out of irrelevant statements to make, you resort to name calling. Yes, I think people in Latin America have a better idea of Marxist and socialist principles than those in the US, because it's much closer a part of their politics. They would know that The Guardian is not "far left" because some of them have been part of, or know people who are part of, the far left. Yes, I think people in the Commonwealth countries have a better idea of what "center-left" means, in the British sense, because of their ties with the UK. Yes, I think people in South Africa (which is a Commonwealth country) have a better idea of what the far left means. They remember - and I've talked to South Africans about this - how the Communist Party of South Africa was banned during the apartheid era because of its anti-apartheid stance, and the ties between the ANC and SACP. Yes, I think the people of Mozambique know better than those in the US what a Marxist government is like, given the rule of Samora Machel. The people of Angola also know what it's like to be organized under a Marxist-Leninist one party state. Plus, Cubans sent both military and medical support to those countries. I could go on, but this is basic history. While in the US there's been, what, two Socialists in Congress, ever, and Congress refused to seat one of them because he was against the US involvement in the First World War, and prosecuted under the horrid Espionage Act? And the US had two Red Scares, about the boogie-man pinkos? And the US passed laws to prevent Communists from being union leaders? Yeah, no. Proportionally speaking, people in the US don't know what "far left" really means compared to most of the rest of the world. Edit: Also, earlier you mentioned the views of those "Western Europe." If you think it's presumption that bring up the views of non-Western Europeans, how are you not also presumption for summarizing the views of Western Europe?
        leereeves 9y ago
        I didn't summarize the views of Western Europe. Read it again. Also, that wasn't name calling. That was a statement of fact, though admittedly provocative. You don't know the viewpoints of hundreds of millions of people and I can't believe you think you do. I know people in America who think the Republican party is left wing and other people who think the Democratic party is right wing. There are as many views of left/right as there are people. But let's move on. This discussion has gone on long enough.

eesmith 9y ago

Like I ask, what Overton window are you looking through? Answer: the US one, where there's been 80 years of anti-communist, anti-socialist propaganda to turn "liberal" and "progressive" into slurs and to keep people from knowing what "the left" really means. The UK standard in this regard is shared with most of the rest of Europe and the European ex-colonies (South America, Australia, South Africa, etc.) It's the US which is the odd-one-out.

leereeves 9y ago
> It's the US which is the odd-one-out. Hardly. The US is to the left social democratically and culturally of nearly every country outside Western Europe.
- eesmith 9y ago
  Irrelevant, because I'm not talking about the politics of the country but the viewpoint of what left/right means.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    So you think you know the viewpoint of everyone in dozens of countries? Arrogant and ignorant.
    - eesmith 9y ago
      I see. When you are out of irrelevant statements to make, you resort to name calling. Yes, I think people in Latin America have a better idea of Marxist and socialist principles than those in the US, because it's much closer a part of their politics. They would know that The Guardian is not "far left" because some of them have been part of, or know people who are part of, the far left. Yes, I think people in the Commonwealth countries have a better idea of what "center-left" means, in the British sense, because of their ties with the UK. Yes, I think people in South Africa (which is a Commonwealth country) have a better idea of what the far left means. They remember - and I've talked to South Africans about this - how the Communist Party of South Africa was banned during the apartheid era because of its anti-apartheid stance, and the ties between the ANC and SACP. Yes, I think the people of Mozambique know better than those in the US what a Marxist government is like, given the rule of Samora Machel. The people of Angola also know what it's like to be organized under a Marxist-Leninist one party state. Plus, Cubans sent both military and medical support to those countries. I could go on, but this is basic history. While in the US there's been, what, two Socialists in Congress, ever, and Congress refused to seat one of them because he was against the US involvement in the First World War, and prosecuted under the horrid Espionage Act? And the US had two Red Scares, about the boogie-man pinkos? And the US passed laws to prevent Communists from being union leaders? Yeah, no. Proportionally speaking, people in the US don't know what "far left" really means compared to most of the rest of the world. Edit: Also, earlier you mentioned the views of those "Western Europe." If you think it's presumption that bring up the views of non-Western Europeans, how are you not also presumption for summarizing the views of Western Europe?
      - leereeves 9y ago
        I didn't summarize the views of Western Europe. Read it again. Also, that wasn't name calling. That was a statement of fact, though admittedly provocative. You don't know the viewpoints of hundreds of millions of people and I can't believe you think you do. I know people in America who think the Republican party is left wing and other people who think the Democratic party is right wing. There are as many views of left/right as there are people. But let's move on. This discussion has gone on long enough.