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>Anyone who is willing to bet their job on a controversial posting That's part of the problem. Lots of people associate Google with research and discourse aki

by serf 9y ago

>Anyone who is willing to bet their job on a controversial posting That's part of the problem. Lots of people associate Google with research and discourse akin to a college campus without realizing that, unlike a college campus, they and their free discourse are not protected in any meaningful way. "Let's be open and transparent and have an open and transparent culture... but don't say things that might hurt our shareholders." Google is beginning to remind me a bit too much of the 'Bright & Shinys" from the movie 'Bubble Boy'[0]. Happy go lucky do-gooder cult that holds that image until you cross them. Things get darker after that point. That initial positive image is all that matters. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIYRfNjHSzA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIYRfNjHSzA

ghaff 9y ago
Unfortunately college campuses don't protect free discourse for certain stripes of political opinion very well these days either. I agree with your broader point though. Different companies are more or less tolerant of free-wheeling discussion that may not reflect an official company position. But, at the end of the day, if you cause embarrassment (especially as a non-exec, non-critical employee) at most companies, you're expendable.
- ltrcola 9y ago
  I don't think they necessarily can, in the interest of fostering a welcoming and safe environment for students to learn. Example: "Let's not be scared of having an open, honest, and frank discussion of how Jews have caused the decline of the country." Do you see how ridiculous that sounds and why a university could not in good faith legitimize the proponents of that theory? Now I'm not saying all issues are as black and white as that, but it's clear to me that there is a line that needs to be drawn somewhere. Any particular issue probably has differing opinions on whether it crosses the lines. But anything that is abusive towards women, minorities, trans people, etc. as people is dangerous ground and I can't argue with not supporting that.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    By and large, I do think that college students do need to be able to deal with viewpoints that hurt or offend them. That doesn't include signs on their dorm doors or people getting in their faces but it does include speakers who they may not like.
    - ltrcola 9y ago
      I generally agree, but there is a line. See my comment above for a longer take on that.
  - manigandham 9y ago
    > welcoming and safe environment Words are not going to hurt anyone, actions will. Students (and all people) should absolutely be protected from harmful actions but we cannot stop discourse just because it sounds offensive to someone, no matter the subject.
    - ltrcola 9y ago
      Words and actions are inextricably linked in complicated ways. I don't know anything about who you are or your situation, but I will say that the "sticks and stones" attitude is much easier to believe in if you've never been in a minority group. I used to buy into it, in fact, until a big bag of empathy hit me like a truck as I got older. Even the conservatives and alt-righters admin this, which is why they're so upset about people using politically correct language, even by their own free choice. "Happy Holidays" anyone? I, for one, would find it pretty disadvantageous in my studies to attend classes at an institution that endorses (even silently) a viewpoint that questions my right to the pursuit of happiness, to marry who I want, to be the correct gender, or even to exist. Organizations can and do limit that speech in certain environments that they are responsible for. That said, the first amendment is hugely important, but limited in scope in the consequences that it protects you from. Of course, it _is_ important to not simply refuse to hear or allow speech that you disagree with. There is a balance to be struck there.
      - 9y ago

by serf 9y ago

ghaff 9y ago

Unfortunately college campuses don't protect free discourse for certain stripes of political opinion very well these days either. I agree with your broader point though. Different companies are more or less tolerant of free-wheeling discussion that may not reflect an official company position. But, at the end of the day, if you cause embarrassment (especially as a non-exec, non-critical employee) at most companies, you're expendable.

ltrcola 9y ago
I don't think they necessarily can, in the interest of fostering a welcoming and safe environment for students to learn. Example: "Let's not be scared of having an open, honest, and frank discussion of how Jews have caused the decline of the country." Do you see how ridiculous that sounds and why a university could not in good faith legitimize the proponents of that theory? Now I'm not saying all issues are as black and white as that, but it's clear to me that there is a line that needs to be drawn somewhere. Any particular issue probably has differing opinions on whether it crosses the lines. But anything that is abusive towards women, minorities, trans people, etc. as people is dangerous ground and I can't argue with not supporting that.
- ghaff 9y ago
  By and large, I do think that college students do need to be able to deal with viewpoints that hurt or offend them. That doesn't include signs on their dorm doors or people getting in their faces but it does include speakers who they may not like.
  - ltrcola 9y ago
    I generally agree, but there is a line. See my comment above for a longer take on that.
- manigandham 9y ago
  > welcoming and safe environment Words are not going to hurt anyone, actions will. Students (and all people) should absolutely be protected from harmful actions but we cannot stop discourse just because it sounds offensive to someone, no matter the subject.
  - ltrcola 9y ago
    Words and actions are inextricably linked in complicated ways. I don't know anything about who you are or your situation, but I will say that the "sticks and stones" attitude is much easier to believe in if you've never been in a minority group. I used to buy into it, in fact, until a big bag of empathy hit me like a truck as I got older. Even the conservatives and alt-righters admin this, which is why they're so upset about people using politically correct language, even by their own free choice. "Happy Holidays" anyone? I, for one, would find it pretty disadvantageous in my studies to attend classes at an institution that endorses (even silently) a viewpoint that questions my right to the pursuit of happiness, to marry who I want, to be the correct gender, or even to exist. Organizations can and do limit that speech in certain environments that they are responsible for. That said, the first amendment is hugely important, but limited in scope in the consequences that it protects you from. Of course, it _is_ important to not simply refuse to hear or allow speech that you disagree with. There is a balance to be struck there.
    - 9y ago