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> His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture

> His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble. > This is the reality of business. Is it? If that's true, we need to be much more aggressive about corporate consolidation because the only way to make room for diversity of opinion is to make sure that there's diversity of opinion at the corporate level. If you quit Google because it's too (insert culture war concern here), which big tech employer is substantially different?

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
Just to clarify, you're saying this incident is illustrating that corporations have too much power?
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > ...is illustrating that corporations have too much power? Compared to employees and consumers? Yes. There aren't enough options out there to let competition correct for these kinds of cultural problems. Of course, this might be a problem that solves itself. As expectations for fair compensation trickles through the rest of the job market, maybe transferring to an equivalent job in a medium sized company in Denver would generally be a lateral move.
s73ver 9y ago
"No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble." Google had to decide which they value more: Demore's manifesto, or the contributions of a third of their workforce.
- Caveman_Coder 9y ago
  > "Google had to decide which they value more: Demore's manifesto, or the contributions of a third of their workforce." False dichotomy...
  - s73ver 9y ago
    No, it isn't. Not when many of their female employees were willing to leave the company, and when the existence of that manifesto would make their recruiting efforts much, much harder.
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  Let me fix that for you: Google had to decide which they value more: Damore's memo, or their legal defense against inevitable discrimination suits. --- nb. Large companies are a constant target for litigants of all stripes. There are suits of all types filed against them regularly. They must be careful or, under current law, a bitter employee who was not in actuality discriminated against can successfully claim discrimination and pilfer millions of dollars from the company, inviting follow-on after follow-on. Because the current law is based upon reading in/assuming specific motives to otherwise-valid actions, companies are forced to assume a defensive legal position, such that the other side's lawyer will have a large amount of difficulty convincing a judge and/or jury that such motives were allowed or tolerated.
cookiecaper 9y ago
>No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble. We're missing a large component of the discussion when we pretend that the content of the letter is the principal issue here. The thing the C-levels are thinking about is liability, because that represents the most direct threat to the company. Allowing Damore to remain on payroll could be interpreted as a tacit endorsement of his letter, which means in a lawsuit, a complainant can claim that Google has already proven itself to accept illegal anti-woman hiring practices by allowing an employee who espouses these things on company time and with company resources to stick around. It can further be argued that their failure to address this bias constitutes a hostile workplace, and will greatly strengthen any potential argument that a female Googler was intentionally and/or actively discriminated against either now or in the past. On the other hand, the consequences of terminating Damore are, essentially, limited to bad press, which is not really a large cost in itself. Google can counteract Damore's complaints with the relevant labor boards by pointing out that they are merely attempting to comply with the law that compels them to create a non-hostile work environment for women. So why are so many CEOs so quick to jump on these diversity/inclusion bandwagons? Because a lawsuit will cost the company millions of dollars in lawyer time alone, and if they lose, potentially many millions of dollars in damages, especially if it's class action. The factual validity of Damore's memo is immaterial. All that matters is that Google risks much more money, more aggressive regulatory oversight, and puts itself in peril of other onerous legal sanctions by keeping Damore on board, and by terminating him, they don't. Anyone who is upset about this should look at the root cause, which is not only the set of laws that may compel such specific behaviors, but also the arcane configuration of the legal system as a whole. It is frequently wielded as a weapon, and that should not be a thing. IANAL
- ebola1717 9y ago
  So... you don't like equal protection laws? I'm like really struggling to figure out the alternative interpretation here.
  - gusmd 9y ago
    Nope. He doesn't like how the US legal system creates incentives to avoid litigation at all costs because it would be ridiculously onerous to prove you were right, even if you were. Which is of course wrong, since you should have the right to prove yourself innocent without going bankrupt. That's why Google took the "easy way out" of firing him.
taysic 9y ago
There's plenty of diversity of opinion within a workplace. No one is obligated to listen to it. If it's made this public so as to embarrass their own company, well what can you do. People get fired for dumber reasons.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > There's plenty of diversity of opinion within a workplace. Then why didn't Pichai predict the blowback from firing Damore? > People get fired for dumber reasons. Is that a defense of Pichai and tech monoculture? People get fired for dumber reasons?

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

Just to clarify, you're saying this incident is illustrating that corporations have too much power?

humanrebar 9y ago
> ...is illustrating that corporations have too much power? Compared to employees and consumers? Yes. There aren't enough options out there to let competition correct for these kinds of cultural problems. Of course, this might be a problem that solves itself. As expectations for fair compensation trickles through the rest of the job market, maybe transferring to an equivalent job in a medium sized company in Denver would generally be a lateral move.

s73ver 9y ago

"No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble." Google had to decide which they value more: Demore's manifesto, or the contributions of a third of their workforce.

Caveman_Coder 9y ago
> "Google had to decide which they value more: Demore's manifesto, or the contributions of a third of their workforce." False dichotomy...
- s73ver 9y ago
  No, it isn't. Not when many of their female employees were willing to leave the company, and when the existence of that manifesto would make their recruiting efforts much, much harder.
cookiecaper 9y ago
Let me fix that for you: Google had to decide which they value more: Damore's memo, or their legal defense against inevitable discrimination suits. --- nb. Large companies are a constant target for litigants of all stripes. There are suits of all types filed against them regularly. They must be careful or, under current law, a bitter employee who was not in actuality discriminated against can successfully claim discrimination and pilfer millions of dollars from the company, inviting follow-on after follow-on. Because the current law is based upon reading in/assuming specific motives to otherwise-valid actions, companies are forced to assume a defensive legal position, such that the other side's lawyer will have a large amount of difficulty convincing a judge and/or jury that such motives were allowed or tolerated.

cookiecaper 9y ago

>No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble. We're missing a large component of the discussion when we pretend that the content of the letter is the principal issue here. The thing the C-levels are thinking about is liability, because that represents the most direct threat to the company. Allowing Damore to remain on payroll could be interpreted as a tacit endorsement of his letter, which means in a lawsuit, a complainant can claim that Google has already proven itself to accept illegal anti-woman hiring practices by allowing an employee who espouses these things on company time and with company resources to stick around. It can further be argued that their failure to address this bias constitutes a hostile workplace, and will greatly strengthen any potential argument that a female Googler was intentionally and/or actively discriminated against either now or in the past. On the other hand, the consequences of terminating Damore are, essentially, limited to bad press, which is not really a large cost in itself. Google can counteract Damore's complaints with the relevant labor boards by pointing out that they are merely attempting to comply with the law that compels them to create a non-hostile work environment for women. So why are so many CEOs so quick to jump on these diversity/inclusion bandwagons? Because a lawsuit will cost the company millions of dollars in lawyer time alone, and if they lose, potentially many millions of dollars in damages, especially if it's class action. The factual validity of Damore's memo is immaterial. All that matters is that Google risks much more money, more aggressive regulatory oversight, and puts itself in peril of other onerous legal sanctions by keeping Damore on board, and by terminating him, they don't. Anyone who is upset about this should look at the root cause, which is not only the set of laws that may compel such specific behaviors, but also the arcane configuration of the legal system as a whole. It is frequently wielded as a weapon, and that should not be a thing. IANAL

ebola1717 9y ago
So... you don't like equal protection laws? I'm like really struggling to figure out the alternative interpretation here.
- gusmd 9y ago
  Nope. He doesn't like how the US legal system creates incentives to avoid litigation at all costs because it would be ridiculously onerous to prove you were right, even if you were. Which is of course wrong, since you should have the right to prove yourself innocent without going bankrupt. That's why Google took the "easy way out" of firing him.

taysic 9y ago

There's plenty of diversity of opinion within a workplace. No one is obligated to listen to it. If it's made this public so as to embarrass their own company, well what can you do. People get fired for dumber reasons.

humanrebar 9y ago
> There's plenty of diversity of opinion within a workplace. Then why didn't Pichai predict the blowback from firing Damore? > People get fired for dumber reasons. Is that a defense of Pichai and tech monoculture? People get fired for dumber reasons?