5 ms·

I worked with a startup years ago that did these kinds of optimizations (for deliveries). The logistics & transportation market in the US is about a TRILLION d

I worked with a startup years ago that did these kinds of optimizations (for deliveries). The logistics & transportation market in the US is about a TRILLION dollars -- small optimizations can make a HUGE impact. The challenge for practical implementations is that there are lots and lots and lots of optimization factors that are very hard to account for. Often, you don't even know what they are until you try to automate the process. For example: preferring small buses on side streets, as the article mentions. Or, knowing about a major work project in an area (to avoid for the coming year), or specific left turns that are tough for a bus. Also, highly optimized schedules usually have (by definition) much less "slack" in the overall system, and are less resilient to real world changes and variations. My point: in my experience, there can often be a significant gap between enthusiastic technologists (myself included) and real-world implementations.

trendia 9y ago
Another example: a lot of rural areas have patches of gravel roads. It's not obvious from Google maps where the roads go from paved to gravel (and they sometimes do it in random sections). Naively looking at a map, you'd think a roundabout route had potential to be shorter, but not realize the road was gravel.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  I imagine many data sets track surface. Surface data in OpenStreetMap is pretty incomplete, but it is easy to add to a road and is well used when present (cycle routing is a popular use of OSM and avoiding soft and uneven surfaces is handy for cycle routing).
- goodcanadian 9y ago
  In rural areas, school buses drive on gravel. Where I grew up, the buses were speed limited by law, so the speed on gravel is often the same as on the highway. Road surface might not matter as much as you think.
  - bluGill 9y ago
    In rural areas there are a lot of minimum maintenance roads. Legally they are roads and you can drive on them all you want. However if you don't have 4 wheel drive you shouldn't drive on them, even with 4 wheel drive there are times when you won't make it. A bus should never drive on these roads, and google does not know which these roads are - as I've discovered when I had to rescue someone who blindly followed google maps.
    - goodcanadian 9y ago
      Sure, I guess I was trying to comment specifically on gravel. You will need accurate maps for this to work, but I think that is basically a given. A human route planner will also need to have accurate maps.
      - vturner 9y ago
        A local human bus driver doesn't need the map, they know the route and the bad road areas.
- eagletusk 9y ago
  In Colorado this has been mapped https://coloradogravelroads.com/ https://coloradogravelroads.com/
mck- 9y ago
Despite gaps between technology and the real-world, there is still tremendous value to be had by technology, if you combined it with the real-world, i.e. humans. Routing algorithms can come up with extremely efficient routes, which can serve as a starting point for the human route planner to fix (to account for real-world knowledge). Consider the alternative where the human route planner starts from scratch.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  UPS' automated routing system acts a partner with human drivers working to beat the route recommendations. https://www.fastcompany.com/3004319/brown-down-ups-drivers-vs-ups-algorithm https://www.fastcompany.com/3004319/brown-down-ups-drivers-v...
jbob2000 9y ago
You're all neglecting the biggest problem of all - the driver. All of this work is moot if Dorthy, who's been driving the same route for 40 years, will not change the route. And you can't get rid of Dorthy because there's nobody to replace her in Dinkysville, Flyoverstate.
- msla 9y ago
  There are any number of reasons for bus drivers to have to change, from route optimization to school redistricting to, back in the old days, having to pick up all the children, not just the White children. People aren't horses. They can accept change.
  - ant6n 9y ago
    The kids change, too. Not too many kids go to primary school for 40 years while living at the same place.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- conductr 9y ago
  I get the point you're making, there's always some human resistance to new systems but it's something you manage through. It's not a show stopper.
KGIII 9y ago
I modeled traffic. I sold my company and retired, years ago. People don't realize how complicated traffic really is. It's a chaotic system, of sorts. You can tease out patterns with some work. Anyhow, to add to your point, you can model all you want - but some drunk is going to reverse the wrong way down a one way street. One of these days, maybe I'll get around to putting my experiences into giant walls of text.
- LiteskinKanye 9y ago
  I would love to hear more
  - KGIII 9y ago
    I'll see about getting some writing started. I keep getting asked to write a book. It was a pretty wild ride. I have a Ph.D. in Applied Mathematics and actually did my research with vehicular traffic because the date was free. I actually expected to remain in academia, but was given the chance to contract with a government agency, even before I'd done my defense. Basically, I helped take the art of traffic modeling to the computer age. I say helped because I stood on the shoulders of giants. I'd eventually be able to hire competent programmers and a real IT staff. Eventually we'd model pedestrian traffic, in addition to vehicular traffic. We would also sell solutions that companies could implement on their own. The recession hit. The US gov announced they were going to invest billions in highway infrastructure. This made the company quite valuable and I was given an exceptionally good offer. So, I sold it and don't regret that decision at all. I'm happily retired and find lots of things to keep me amused. There is a whole lot more to the story but that's the gist of it. I'm the same KGIII you may have seen on Slashdot.
    - shishy 9y ago
      This is really interesting! Thanks for sharing. Is the vehicular traffic data you're referring to at the state level (i.e. do individual states report on it)? Or is it available for all states? And can anyone access it or is it only free for academic licenses?

trendia 9y ago

Another example: a lot of rural areas have patches of gravel roads. It's not obvious from Google maps where the roads go from paved to gravel (and they sometimes do it in random sections). Naively looking at a map, you'd think a roundabout route had potential to be shorter, but not realize the road was gravel.

maxerickson 9y ago
I imagine many data sets track surface. Surface data in OpenStreetMap is pretty incomplete, but it is easy to add to a road and is well used when present (cycle routing is a popular use of OSM and avoiding soft and uneven surfaces is handy for cycle routing).
goodcanadian 9y ago
In rural areas, school buses drive on gravel. Where I grew up, the buses were speed limited by law, so the speed on gravel is often the same as on the highway. Road surface might not matter as much as you think.
- bluGill 9y ago
  In rural areas there are a lot of minimum maintenance roads. Legally they are roads and you can drive on them all you want. However if you don't have 4 wheel drive you shouldn't drive on them, even with 4 wheel drive there are times when you won't make it. A bus should never drive on these roads, and google does not know which these roads are - as I've discovered when I had to rescue someone who blindly followed google maps.
  - goodcanadian 9y ago
    Sure, I guess I was trying to comment specifically on gravel. You will need accurate maps for this to work, but I think that is basically a given. A human route planner will also need to have accurate maps.
    - vturner 9y ago
      A local human bus driver doesn't need the map, they know the route and the bad road areas.
eagletusk 9y ago
In Colorado this has been mapped https://coloradogravelroads.com/ https://coloradogravelroads.com/

mck- 9y ago

Despite gaps between technology and the real-world, there is still tremendous value to be had by technology, if you combined it with the real-world, i.e. humans. Routing algorithms can come up with extremely efficient routes, which can serve as a starting point for the human route planner to fix (to account for real-world knowledge). Consider the alternative where the human route planner starts from scratch.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
UPS' automated routing system acts a partner with human drivers working to beat the route recommendations. https://www.fastcompany.com/3004319/brown-down-ups-drivers-vs-ups-algorithm https://www.fastcompany.com/3004319/brown-down-ups-drivers-v...

jbob2000 9y ago

You're all neglecting the biggest problem of all - the driver. All of this work is moot if Dorthy, who's been driving the same route for 40 years, will not change the route. And you can't get rid of Dorthy because there's nobody to replace her in Dinkysville, Flyoverstate.

msla 9y ago
There are any number of reasons for bus drivers to have to change, from route optimization to school redistricting to, back in the old days, having to pick up all the children, not just the White children. People aren't horses. They can accept change.
- ant6n 9y ago
  The kids change, too. Not too many kids go to primary school for 40 years while living at the same place.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
conductr 9y ago
I get the point you're making, there's always some human resistance to new systems but it's something you manage through. It's not a show stopper.

KGIII 9y ago

I modeled traffic. I sold my company and retired, years ago. People don't realize how complicated traffic really is. It's a chaotic system, of sorts. You can tease out patterns with some work. Anyhow, to add to your point, you can model all you want - but some drunk is going to reverse the wrong way down a one way street. One of these days, maybe I'll get around to putting my experiences into giant walls of text.

LiteskinKanye 9y ago
I would love to hear more
- KGIII 9y ago
  I'll see about getting some writing started. I keep getting asked to write a book. It was a pretty wild ride. I have a Ph.D. in Applied Mathematics and actually did my research with vehicular traffic because the date was free. I actually expected to remain in academia, but was given the chance to contract with a government agency, even before I'd done my defense. Basically, I helped take the art of traffic modeling to the computer age. I say helped because I stood on the shoulders of giants. I'd eventually be able to hire competent programmers and a real IT staff. Eventually we'd model pedestrian traffic, in addition to vehicular traffic. We would also sell solutions that companies could implement on their own. The recession hit. The US gov announced they were going to invest billions in highway infrastructure. This made the company quite valuable and I was given an exceptionally good offer. So, I sold it and don't regret that decision at all. I'm happily retired and find lots of things to keep me amused. There is a whole lot more to the story but that's the gist of it. I'm the same KGIII you may have seen on Slashdot.
  - shishy 9y ago
    This is really interesting! Thanks for sharing. Is the vehicular traffic data you're referring to at the state level (i.e. do individual states report on it)? Or is it available for all states? And can anyone access it or is it only free for academic licenses?