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This is precisely the tactic that the left has relied on for the past couple years: cite a few actual white-supremacists and claim they represent everyone to th

This is precisely the tactic that the left has relied on for the past couple years: cite a few actual white-supremacists and claim they represent everyone to the right of Bernie Sanders.

tptacek 9y ago
Can you address the part where he observes that large numbers of people, not just one lurid example, are marching in solidarity with declared neo-Nazis? Otherwise, you're cherry-picking.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- leereeves 9y ago
  Unless James Damore is planning to march tomorrow, how is that relevant to this discussion? You're again using exactly the tactic I described: bringing up white supremacists to derail any discussion and discredit any person the left doesn't approve of.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    I'm not the one saying that Damore is part of "the alt right". Neither is 'geofft. One of his supporters is. I have no particular reason to believe they're right. Most conservatives, even the ones who write bad memos, aren't "alt right" people, just like most liberals aren't actual communists. My interest is in establishing something about "the alt right", not about Damore. So, can you answer the question now?
    - leereeves 9y ago
      I've already given the answer to your question: Whoever marches in Charlottesville represents those who march in Charlottesville. They don't speak for the rest of the "alt-right", whatever that is.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        Can we safely assume that people who literally march in solidarity with neo-Nazis lose the rhetorical privilege of objecting to comparisons between them and Nazis? (That doesn't make them "actual Nazis", it just makes the comparison germane). Can we assume that if some duly constituted group --- whatever definition we choose --- sponsors a march in solidarity with neo-Nazis, and the group is not riven with dissent over that action, that it's germane to compare members of that group (or, at least, those who knowingly remain after the march) with Nazis? Again: the action isn't dispositive; it just means the comparison, right or wrong, isn't frivolous.
        leereeves 9y ago
        > Can we safely assume that people who literally march in solidarity with neo-Nazis Are we talking about anyone who's done so here? If not, why bring them up?
        tptacek 9y ago
        I answered that question directly one comment prior. Is the question I just asked hard to answer? I am not building to an indictment of James Damore, if that's what you're wondering.
        leereeves 9y ago
        If you're asking about "the alt-right", you'll first have to define it. As far as I know, that's not some duly constituted group - it's an insult used against a wide variety of people ("everyone to the right of Bernie Sanders") by their political adversaries. And the intention of the insult is to encourage exactly what happened here - to associate people like James Damore with people like those marching in Charlottesville.
        tptacek 9y ago
        That's specifically not the question I asked. I wasn't asking about "the alt right". I deliberately removed "the alt right" from the question to avoid a pointless debate about what "the alt right" is. One of the very first things I wrote here said not only that I don't have evidence that Damore is part of "the alt right" ---- one of his enthusiastic supporters did --- but to reject the logic that would assign him to any such group. Conservatives are not neo-Nazis. I'm not a conservative, but I have plenty of conservative friends, and I actually enjoy talking to them about policy more than to my fellow liberals. So, again, I'm just interested in the principles here. Could you check out those two questions I asked upthread and give me a quick take on them? Thanks!
eesmith 9y ago
The 15-million-member Southern Baptist Convention voted 'to condemn "alt-right white supremacy."'. http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2017/06/southern_baptists_to_vote_on_c.html http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2017/06/southern_baptists... The SBC is to the right of Bernie Sanders. For example, it prohibits male pastors and says the husband is the head of the family and the wife subservient to him. They define 'alt-right' as a synonym for white supremacy, thusly: Racism and white supremacy are, sadly, not extinct but present all over the world in various white supremacist movements, sometimes known as "white nationalism" or "alt-right" - http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/2283/on-the-antigospel-of-altright-white-supremacy http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/2283/on-the-antigospel-of-alt... Therefore, your description about this being a tactic of the left doesn't hold water.
- leereeves 9y ago
  Shocking that the Southern Baptist Convention isn't familiar with online debate. > They define 'alt-right' as a synonym for white supremacy That's not how the term is usually used online, though, except to suggest that anyone to right of Bernie Sanders is a white supremacist.
  - geofft 9y ago
    > That's not how the word is usually used online, though, except to suggest that anyone to right of Bernie Sanders is a white supremacist. The world alt-right was a) coined by its members, not by its detractors and b) stands for "alternative right," that is, it implies that there exists a mainstream right wing that is not the alt-right. (It's also a term used in the real world and not just "online debate"; for instance, the alt-right is marching in Charlottesville this weekend, which is located in Virginia and not on the internet.)
    - leereeves 9y ago
      As we see on this page, clearly the meaning has expanded far beyond the origins you're familiar with.

This is precisely the tactic that the left has relied on for the past couple years: cite a few actual white-supremacists and claim they represent everyone to the right of Bernie Sanders.

tptacek 9y ago

Can you address the part where he observes that large numbers of people, not just one lurid example, are marching in solidarity with declared neo-Nazis? Otherwise, you're cherry-picking.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
leereeves 9y ago
Unless James Damore is planning to march tomorrow, how is that relevant to this discussion? You're again using exactly the tactic I described: bringing up white supremacists to derail any discussion and discredit any person the left doesn't approve of.
- tptacek 9y ago
  I'm not the one saying that Damore is part of "the alt right". Neither is 'geofft. One of his supporters is. I have no particular reason to believe they're right. Most conservatives, even the ones who write bad memos, aren't "alt right" people, just like most liberals aren't actual communists. My interest is in establishing something about "the alt right", not about Damore. So, can you answer the question now?
  - leereeves 9y ago
    I've already given the answer to your question: Whoever marches in Charlottesville represents those who march in Charlottesville. They don't speak for the rest of the "alt-right", whatever that is.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      Can we safely assume that people who literally march in solidarity with neo-Nazis lose the rhetorical privilege of objecting to comparisons between them and Nazis? (That doesn't make them "actual Nazis", it just makes the comparison germane). Can we assume that if some duly constituted group --- whatever definition we choose --- sponsors a march in solidarity with neo-Nazis, and the group is not riven with dissent over that action, that it's germane to compare members of that group (or, at least, those who knowingly remain after the march) with Nazis? Again: the action isn't dispositive; it just means the comparison, right or wrong, isn't frivolous.
      - leereeves 9y ago
        > Can we safely assume that people who literally march in solidarity with neo-Nazis Are we talking about anyone who's done so here? If not, why bring them up?
        tptacek 9y ago
        I answered that question directly one comment prior. Is the question I just asked hard to answer? I am not building to an indictment of James Damore, if that's what you're wondering.
        leereeves 9y ago
        If you're asking about "the alt-right", you'll first have to define it. As far as I know, that's not some duly constituted group - it's an insult used against a wide variety of people ("everyone to the right of Bernie Sanders") by their political adversaries. And the intention of the insult is to encourage exactly what happened here - to associate people like James Damore with people like those marching in Charlottesville.
        tptacek 9y ago
        That's specifically not the question I asked. I wasn't asking about "the alt right". I deliberately removed "the alt right" from the question to avoid a pointless debate about what "the alt right" is. One of the very first things I wrote here said not only that I don't have evidence that Damore is part of "the alt right" ---- one of his enthusiastic supporters did --- but to reject the logic that would assign him to any such group. Conservatives are not neo-Nazis. I'm not a conservative, but I have plenty of conservative friends, and I actually enjoy talking to them about policy more than to my fellow liberals. So, again, I'm just interested in the principles here. Could you check out those two questions I asked upthread and give me a quick take on them? Thanks!

eesmith 9y ago

The 15-million-member Southern Baptist Convention voted 'to condemn "alt-right white supremacy."'. http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2017/06/southern_baptists_to_vote_on_c.html http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2017/06/southern_baptists... The SBC is to the right of Bernie Sanders. For example, it prohibits male pastors and says the husband is the head of the family and the wife subservient to him. They define 'alt-right' as a synonym for white supremacy, thusly: Racism and white supremacy are, sadly, not extinct but present all over the world in various white supremacist movements, sometimes known as "white nationalism" or "alt-right" - http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/2283/on-the-antigospel-of-altright-white-supremacy http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/2283/on-the-antigospel-of-alt... Therefore, your description about this being a tactic of the left doesn't hold water.

leereeves 9y ago
Shocking that the Southern Baptist Convention isn't familiar with online debate. > They define 'alt-right' as a synonym for white supremacy That's not how the term is usually used online, though, except to suggest that anyone to right of Bernie Sanders is a white supremacist.
- geofft 9y ago
  > That's not how the word is usually used online, though, except to suggest that anyone to right of Bernie Sanders is a white supremacist. The world alt-right was a) coined by its members, not by its detractors and b) stands for "alternative right," that is, it implies that there exists a mainstream right wing that is not the alt-right. (It's also a term used in the real world and not just "online debate"; for instance, the alt-right is marching in Charlottesville this weekend, which is located in Virginia and not on the internet.)
  - leereeves 9y ago
    As we see on this page, clearly the meaning has expanded far beyond the origins you're familiar with.