14 ms·

It has so much utility because you can effectively call your opponent a nazi without invoking Godwin's law!

by pault 9y ago

geofft 9y ago
Godwin's Law is that the probability of a comparison to the Nazis approaches one, not that the person making the comparison automatically loses. Furthermore, Mike Godwin himself says that you should make comparisons to the Nazis when warranted. https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/sure-call-trump-a-nazi-just-make-sure-you-know-what-youre-talking-about/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/... Tomorrow the alt-right will be marching in Charlottesville in support of actual literal neo-Nazis who call themselves Nazis, and claiming that they share a common enemy with the neo-Nazis and will therefore not criticize the neo-Nazis about anything. AlternativeRight.com is run by actual literal neo-Nazi Richard Spencer. They're calling themselves Nazis, and it's technically accurate. There's no need for their opponents to do it, and also, why should we censor facts simply because they are politically incorrect? Does it hurt the alt-right's feelings to be called "Nazi"? Facts don't care about your feelings.
- thatonechad 9y ago
  They aren't marching with neo nazis. You are generalizing an entire group of people based off a small few. Essentially this would be like saying all liberals are left wing terrorists because they support Black Lives Matter, whom speaks highly and celebrates a black nationalist who killed a police officer and fled to Cuba. Or all left wing groups are extremist because Antifa literally use communist and facist tactics to shut down there enemy. Stop and think before you post non sense.
  - geofft 9y ago
    > They aren't marching with neo nazis. Let's see.... https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6rsng3/unite_the_right_in_charlottesville_next_week/ https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6rsng3/unite_th... > I want to be perfectly clear with you guys that many of the people who will be there are National Socialist and Ethnostate sort of groups. I don’t endorse them. In this case, the pursuit of preserving without shame white culture, our goals happen to align. I’ll be there regardless of the questionable company because saving history is more important than our differences. This is probably why they named the event “Unite the Right.” > Speaking for myself only, I won't be punching right. We need to save civilization first, we can argue about the exact details later. and from the comments: > Exactly. Anything to the right of Elizabeth warren is already a nazi ready to gas six trillion Jews so might as well say fuck it. The enemies of my enemy are my friends https://altright.com/2017/08/05/the-unite-the-right-rally-is-going-to-be-a-turning-point-for-white-identity-in-america/ https://altright.com/2017/08/05/the-unite-the-right-rally-is... > The Daily Stormer [a neo-Nazi site] has been promoting the event heavily and it looks like they are going to bring a lot of young new cadres to the rally. Identity Evropa [a white-nationalist group] will be there as well as several Southern Nationalist groups. There will be no Alt-Lite co-rally, it will be just us, the proverbial and literal White Guard out there defending the statue of General Lee. This is a good development. They are quickly becoming irrelevant and losing their street presence as we continue to grow and take up space. https://www.dailystormer.com/a-normies-guide-to-the-alt-right/ https://www.dailystormer.com/a-normies-guide-to-the-alt-righ... Describing the origin of the alt-right: > On 4chan, the Jewish problem was analyzed by news junkies and history buffs, feminism was deconstructred by sexually frustrated young men, and race was considered based on the actual data on the issue. The rehabilitation of Adolf Hitler and the NSDAP largely took place on 4chan. > This newly formulated Nazi ideology was then combined with the established troll culture, based on memes, hilarious images designed to transmit cultural concepts, and “lulz,” a term coined by the troll Jameth which defines the type of malicious humor associated with trolling. The only way you can claim that they're not marching with neo-Nazis and promoting neo-Nazism is if you use a definition of alt-right that's different from how the alt-right define themselves. As far as I can tell, the term "alt-lite" was created specifically to disavow the small number of people who refused to stand with the neo-Nazis.
    - thatonechad 9y ago
      I do stand corrected. However to their defense this doesn't mean the members of The_Donald are endorsing White Nationalism or white supremacist. Is this any difference from the alt left association with their extremist views? Why can we paint a broad brush on one group of people, yet we cannot when you are a liberal or democrat? Also there are various factions of the alt-right and the stormers / white nationalist are a very very small factions. The problem is people like yourself and other outlets lumped them altogether as one when they are more diverse than that. They then just ran with it. http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/ http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-co...
      - pvg 9y ago
        Wait, so you said someone who pointed out they marched with Nazis spread 'nonsense', then admitted they march with Nazis but the problem is the people who bring up they march with Nazis? The marching with Nazis is not the problem?
        thatonechad 9y ago
        I admitted being incorrect but simply pointing out how the original post painted a broad brush stating that alt right = white supremecist on the basis of that group being a small minority of people. And i compared it to the alt left. If this is the case then we should assume the alt-left are muslim extremists, or anarchists correct? Alt-left are associated with Antifa therefore they are extremists? The broad strokes are more common coming from the liberals and love to assume everyone is a nazi because its easier to debate.
- leereeves 9y ago
  This is precisely the tactic that the left has relied on for the past couple years: cite a few actual white-supremacists and claim they represent everyone to the right of Bernie Sanders.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    Can you address the part where he observes that large numbers of people, not just one lurid example, are marching in solidarity with declared neo-Nazis? Otherwise, you're cherry-picking.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - leereeves 9y ago
      Unless James Damore is planning to march tomorrow, how is that relevant to this discussion? You're again using exactly the tactic I described: bringing up white supremacists to derail any discussion and discredit any person the left doesn't approve of.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        I'm not the one saying that Damore is part of "the alt right". Neither is 'geofft. One of his supporters is. I have no particular reason to believe they're right. Most conservatives, even the ones who write bad memos, aren't "alt right" people, just like most liberals aren't actual communists. My interest is in establishing something about "the alt right", not about Damore. So, can you answer the question now?
        leereeves 9y ago
        I've already given the answer to your question: Whoever marches in Charlottesville represents those who march in Charlottesville. They don't speak for the rest of the "alt-right", whatever that is.
- cm2187 9y ago
  Treating someone who objects to affirmative action of being a neo-nazi is a valid Godwin point. The world is slightly more subtle than liberals vs neo-nazis.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    Rereading this thread, it looks like one of his supporters associated him with "the alt-right". I don't see the place where it was asserted that there are only "liberals" and "neo-nazis".
sctb 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14988836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14988836 and marked it off-topic.
- pault 9y ago
  I agree with this decision. The sad part is that this is one of my highest scoring comments in five years.

It has so much utility because you can effectively call your opponent a nazi without invoking Godwin's law!

by pault 9y ago

It has so much utility because you can effectively call your opponent a nazi without invoking Godwin's law!

Godwin's Law is that the probability of a comparison to the Nazis approaches one, not that the person making the comparison automatically loses. Furthermore, Mike Godwin himself says that you should make comparisons to the Nazis when warranted. https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/sure-call-trump-a-nazi-just-make-sure-you-know-what-youre-talking-about/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/... Tomorrow the alt-right will be marching in Charlottesville in support of actual literal neo-Nazis who call themselves Nazis, and claiming that they share a common enemy with the neo-Nazis and will therefore not criticize the neo-Nazis about anything. AlternativeRight.com is run by actual literal neo-Nazi Richard Spencer. They're calling themselves Nazis, and it's technically accurate. There's no need for their opponents to do it, and also, why should we censor facts simply because they are politically incorrect? Does it hurt the alt-right's feelings to be called "Nazi"? Facts don't care about your feelings.

thatonechad 9y ago
They aren't marching with neo nazis. You are generalizing an entire group of people based off a small few. Essentially this would be like saying all liberals are left wing terrorists because they support Black Lives Matter, whom speaks highly and celebrates a black nationalist who killed a police officer and fled to Cuba. Or all left wing groups are extremist because Antifa literally use communist and facist tactics to shut down there enemy. Stop and think before you post non sense.
- geofft 9y ago
  > They aren't marching with neo nazis. Let's see.... https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6rsng3/unite_the_right_in_charlottesville_next_week/ https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6rsng3/unite_th... > I want to be perfectly clear with you guys that many of the people who will be there are National Socialist and Ethnostate sort of groups. I don’t endorse them. In this case, the pursuit of preserving without shame white culture, our goals happen to align. I’ll be there regardless of the questionable company because saving history is more important than our differences. This is probably why they named the event “Unite the Right.” > Speaking for myself only, I won't be punching right. We need to save civilization first, we can argue about the exact details later. and from the comments: > Exactly. Anything to the right of Elizabeth warren is already a nazi ready to gas six trillion Jews so might as well say fuck it. The enemies of my enemy are my friends https://altright.com/2017/08/05/the-unite-the-right-rally-is-going-to-be-a-turning-point-for-white-identity-in-america/ https://altright.com/2017/08/05/the-unite-the-right-rally-is... > The Daily Stormer [a neo-Nazi site] has been promoting the event heavily and it looks like they are going to bring a lot of young new cadres to the rally. Identity Evropa [a white-nationalist group] will be there as well as several Southern Nationalist groups. There will be no Alt-Lite co-rally, it will be just us, the proverbial and literal White Guard out there defending the statue of General Lee. This is a good development. They are quickly becoming irrelevant and losing their street presence as we continue to grow and take up space. https://www.dailystormer.com/a-normies-guide-to-the-alt-right/ https://www.dailystormer.com/a-normies-guide-to-the-alt-righ... Describing the origin of the alt-right: > On 4chan, the Jewish problem was analyzed by news junkies and history buffs, feminism was deconstructred by sexually frustrated young men, and race was considered based on the actual data on the issue. The rehabilitation of Adolf Hitler and the NSDAP largely took place on 4chan. > This newly formulated Nazi ideology was then combined with the established troll culture, based on memes, hilarious images designed to transmit cultural concepts, and “lulz,” a term coined by the troll Jameth which defines the type of malicious humor associated with trolling. The only way you can claim that they're not marching with neo-Nazis and promoting neo-Nazism is if you use a definition of alt-right that's different from how the alt-right define themselves. As far as I can tell, the term "alt-lite" was created specifically to disavow the small number of people who refused to stand with the neo-Nazis.
  - thatonechad 9y ago
    I do stand corrected. However to their defense this doesn't mean the members of The_Donald are endorsing White Nationalism or white supremacist. Is this any difference from the alt left association with their extremist views? Why can we paint a broad brush on one group of people, yet we cannot when you are a liberal or democrat? Also there are various factions of the alt-right and the stormers / white nationalist are a very very small factions. The problem is people like yourself and other outlets lumped them altogether as one when they are more diverse than that. They then just ran with it. http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/ http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-co...
    - pvg 9y ago
      Wait, so you said someone who pointed out they marched with Nazis spread 'nonsense', then admitted they march with Nazis but the problem is the people who bring up they march with Nazis? The marching with Nazis is not the problem?
      - thatonechad 9y ago
        I admitted being incorrect but simply pointing out how the original post painted a broad brush stating that alt right = white supremecist on the basis of that group being a small minority of people. And i compared it to the alt left. If this is the case then we should assume the alt-left are muslim extremists, or anarchists correct? Alt-left are associated with Antifa therefore they are extremists? The broad strokes are more common coming from the liberals and love to assume everyone is a nazi because its easier to debate.
leereeves 9y ago
This is precisely the tactic that the left has relied on for the past couple years: cite a few actual white-supremacists and claim they represent everyone to the right of Bernie Sanders.
- tptacek 9y ago
  Can you address the part where he observes that large numbers of people, not just one lurid example, are marching in solidarity with declared neo-Nazis? Otherwise, you're cherry-picking.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - leereeves 9y ago
    Unless James Damore is planning to march tomorrow, how is that relevant to this discussion? You're again using exactly the tactic I described: bringing up white supremacists to derail any discussion and discredit any person the left doesn't approve of.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      I'm not the one saying that Damore is part of "the alt right". Neither is 'geofft. One of his supporters is. I have no particular reason to believe they're right. Most conservatives, even the ones who write bad memos, aren't "alt right" people, just like most liberals aren't actual communists. My interest is in establishing something about "the alt right", not about Damore. So, can you answer the question now?
      - leereeves 9y ago
        I've already given the answer to your question: Whoever marches in Charlottesville represents those who march in Charlottesville. They don't speak for the rest of the "alt-right", whatever that is.
cm2187 9y ago
Treating someone who objects to affirmative action of being a neo-nazi is a valid Godwin point. The world is slightly more subtle than liberals vs neo-nazis.
- tptacek 9y ago
  Rereading this thread, it looks like one of his supporters associated him with "the alt-right". I don't see the place where it was asserted that there are only "liberals" and "neo-nazis".

sctb 9y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14988836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14988836 and marked it off-topic.

pault 9y ago
I agree with this decision. The sad part is that this is one of my highest scoring comments in five years.