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I tried it. I really did. I decided I'd be a rock-star code-god Emacs user that did everything in emacs. I set up Wanderlust, and by god it sorta worked with G

by jff 16y ago

I tried it. I really did. I decided I'd be a rock-star code-god Emacs user that did everything in emacs. I set up Wanderlust, and by god it sorta worked with Gmail. Sorta. There were little problems with messages getting resurrected as "unread" even after I'd read them, and composing a message meant my "drafts" folder got pounded by incremental saved messages every 30 seconds, but whatever. Then I tried to find a web browser that runs in Emacs and will display pages properly, not in the broken Links/Lynx way (with or without pictures). No dice. Oh well. Then I started using IRC and my IM clients in Emacs. They worked ok, but it was around this point that I started to realize what an incredible pain in the ass it is to manage buffers in Emacs. To start with, you never really have enough space on screen, so a lot of the buffers end up being hidden. Ok, whatever, but then you realize it's a hassle to even switch over to a different buffer, with the M-x b type-some-of-the-buffer-name dance, since you can't keep them all on-screen to switch around with C-x o. Of course, C-x o begins to get cumbersome when I have more than a couple windows/buffers open on screen at a time. Then I realized that I'd really rather make my fingers feel happier (and yes, I use the swapped Caps Lock key) and just use this amazing tool we already have. It's designed for selecting things, and it moves spatially in 2 dimensions. I guess I don't look so haxxor-1337 anymore, waving that mouse around like a clueless Windows user, but I'm actually happy now that I left the Cult of the Key-Combo. These days, I read my email in Firefox because I just don't care, and I do all my coding and text-editing in Acme, because I do care. For all the bullshit Emacsians spew about "losing focus by switching applications", they're switching applications at least as much as I do, every single time they M-x wanderlust, or switch over to the Org buffer--they're just switching applications with M-x b, rather than Alt-Tab.

holygoat 16y ago
I've become really happy with my various ways of switching between things. Part of the reason why is that there are so many ways to do it, because I don't put everything in Emacs. I use a Mac, running various web browsers, Mac apps, Vim, Emacs, and connecting to Windows over Remote Desktop. I use: * Cmd-Tab to switch between Mac apps. Even works if I'm fullscreen in Windows: Cmd-Tab and I'm back to my Mac browser. * Cmd-~ to switch between Mac windows. Scoped to the current app, which helps when I have lots open. * Cmd-Shift-[ and ] to switch between Terminal tabs. No worries about the shell catching those keys. * Option-Tab to switch between windows within Windows. * gt/gT and the Ctrl-W keys to manage tabs and windows in Vim. * etc. Notice how I have various levels of switching? I don't have all of my tasks on the same flat plane, so I can switch between groups easily. Vim and Emacs end up as task-specific interfaces; I don't have to worry about getting my IRC client out of the way when I want to edit a few files, and the shortcuts to get to my browser is disjoint with the ones I use in my editor. Somehow all of these are internalized, so the complexity doesn't really affect me. I just notice how easy it is to get to what I want across multiple OSes and apps.
amh 16y ago
Yeah, the "do everything inside emacs" lifestyle slowly became obsolete as web browsers in particular got much more advanced. I followed much the same path as you did except I still haven't found an editor I truly prefer, so now I only spend about 60% of my time living in emacs. acme is interesting but I'm not convinced that switching so often between the mouse and keyboard is any better when it comes to RSI. Guess I'll have to try it for a couple weeks.
Tycho 16y ago
I gave up before I really started, specifically when I read some power user admit that it took him a whole year to get used to using emacs. Not happening. Incidentally, there is a well documented psychological phenomenon whereby people automatically value things higher just because they invested more time in them... just saying. (also when I found Textmate, that also kind of killed off my interest in Emacs)
- avar 16y ago
  It has taken me several years to get used to using Unix systems through accumulated casual and professional usage. I used Git for a year or so before I really started to understand it. Emacs is like that. You can read the Emacs tutorial in 20 minutes and use it like a fancy notepad, but true mastery of any complex and powerful system takes years.
rntz 16y ago
I agree that using emacs for everything is not for everyone. But with regards to switching between buffers being cumbersome: 1. If you're not willing to change your keybindings to taste, Emacs basically isn't for you; its default bindings are terrible. I suggest binding switch-to-buffer (C-x b) and other-window (C-x o) to single, easy-to-reach chords (I use C-. and C-' respectively). 2. switch-to-buffer sucks. Use iswitchb-mode; it gives you interactive completion of buffer names with substring matching. It also lists your buffers in most-recently-used order, so switching back-and-forth between two buffers is trivial. (There's also ido-mode, which adds interactive completion to even more things with even more features.) Basically this is the same issue that emacs has always had: the learning curve is steep and you have to invest some time and explore in order to find settings that work for you. (I'm sure you're happy with your current setup; I'm making this post more for people who might be scared away from Emacs than to try and convert you.)
- ecyrb 16y ago
  I'm pretty happy with LustyExplorer [1] which sounds like it does what iswitchb-mode does, but also has a decent find-file browser. 1. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/LustyExplorer http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/LustyExplorer
alnayyir 16y ago
I mostly live in textmate and textmate clones when I need to traverse many folders/files at a time, which is frequently. If I'm working on something obscure (server-side javascript, ML, parser generators, ragel, etc) I just fire up emacs because there is ALWAYS a mode for what you want. I don't see why there has to be one true tool either way, so I'd say that I agree in general. Can't say that I grok acme. Tried it, can't do it.
lg 16y ago
Do you know about frame-configuration-to-register (C-x r f <key> to save, C-x r j <key> to jump to one)? I set up an IRC configuration with the 4 channels I check regularly, another one for shell buffers for all the machines i'm usually on, etc.
patrickaljord 16y ago
Here's your web browser http://www.haxney.org/2009/08/its-alive.html http://www.haxney.org/2009/08/its-alive.html
GeneralMaximus 16y ago
Just because you can use Emacs for everything doesn't mean you should. I use Emacs solely for editing code. I use MacIrssi/Xchat/Opera for IRC, a web browser (Opera, Chrome, Firefox ... anything at all) for browsing the web, GMail for email, Adium/Empathy for IM. I don't even run eshell; I prefer running multiple Terminal.apps/gnome-terminals. You don't have to use Emacs just because rockstars use it. I know awesome people who run Windows and use Notepad++.

by jff 16y ago

holygoat 16y ago

I've become really happy with my various ways of switching between things. Part of the reason why is that there are so many ways to do it, because I don't put everything in Emacs. I use a Mac, running various web browsers, Mac apps, Vim, Emacs, and connecting to Windows over Remote Desktop. I use: * Cmd-Tab to switch between Mac apps. Even works if I'm fullscreen in Windows: Cmd-Tab and I'm back to my Mac browser. * Cmd-~ to switch between Mac windows. Scoped to the current app, which helps when I have lots open. * Cmd-Shift-[ and ] to switch between Terminal tabs. No worries about the shell catching those keys. * Option-Tab to switch between windows within Windows. * gt/gT and the Ctrl-W keys to manage tabs and windows in Vim. * etc. Notice how I have various levels of switching? I don't have all of my tasks on the same flat plane, so I can switch between groups easily. Vim and Emacs end up as task-specific interfaces; I don't have to worry about getting my IRC client out of the way when I want to edit a few files, and the shortcuts to get to my browser is disjoint with the ones I use in my editor. Somehow all of these are internalized, so the complexity doesn't really affect me. I just notice how easy it is to get to what I want across multiple OSes and apps.

amh 16y ago

Yeah, the "do everything inside emacs" lifestyle slowly became obsolete as web browsers in particular got much more advanced. I followed much the same path as you did except I still haven't found an editor I truly prefer, so now I only spend about 60% of my time living in emacs. acme is interesting but I'm not convinced that switching so often between the mouse and keyboard is any better when it comes to RSI. Guess I'll have to try it for a couple weeks.

Tycho 16y ago

I gave up before I really started, specifically when I read some power user admit that it took him a whole year to get used to using emacs. Not happening. Incidentally, there is a well documented psychological phenomenon whereby people automatically value things higher just because they invested more time in them... just saying. (also when I found Textmate, that also kind of killed off my interest in Emacs)

avar 16y ago
It has taken me several years to get used to using Unix systems through accumulated casual and professional usage. I used Git for a year or so before I really started to understand it. Emacs is like that. You can read the Emacs tutorial in 20 minutes and use it like a fancy notepad, but true mastery of any complex and powerful system takes years.

rntz 16y ago

I agree that using emacs for everything is not for everyone. But with regards to switching between buffers being cumbersome: 1. If you're not willing to change your keybindings to taste, Emacs basically isn't for you; its default bindings are terrible. I suggest binding switch-to-buffer (C-x b) and other-window (C-x o) to single, easy-to-reach chords (I use C-. and C-' respectively). 2. switch-to-buffer sucks. Use iswitchb-mode; it gives you interactive completion of buffer names with substring matching. It also lists your buffers in most-recently-used order, so switching back-and-forth between two buffers is trivial. (There's also ido-mode, which adds interactive completion to even more things with even more features.) Basically this is the same issue that emacs has always had: the learning curve is steep and you have to invest some time and explore in order to find settings that work for you. (I'm sure you're happy with your current setup; I'm making this post more for people who might be scared away from Emacs than to try and convert you.)

ecyrb 16y ago
I'm pretty happy with LustyExplorer [1] which sounds like it does what iswitchb-mode does, but also has a decent find-file browser. 1. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/LustyExplorer http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/LustyExplorer

alnayyir 16y ago

I mostly live in textmate and textmate clones when I need to traverse many folders/files at a time, which is frequently. If I'm working on something obscure (server-side javascript, ML, parser generators, ragel, etc) I just fire up emacs because there is ALWAYS a mode for what you want. I don't see why there has to be one true tool either way, so I'd say that I agree in general. Can't say that I grok acme. Tried it, can't do it.

lg 16y ago

Do you know about frame-configuration-to-register (C-x r f <key> to save, C-x r j <key> to jump to one)? I set up an IRC configuration with the 4 channels I check regularly, another one for shell buffers for all the machines i'm usually on, etc.

patrickaljord 16y ago

Here's your web browser http://www.haxney.org/2009/08/its-alive.html http://www.haxney.org/2009/08/its-alive.html

GeneralMaximus 16y ago

Just because you can use Emacs for everything doesn't mean you should. I use Emacs solely for editing code. I use MacIrssi/Xchat/Opera for IRC, a web browser (Opera, Chrome, Firefox ... anything at all) for browsing the web, GMail for email, Adium/Empathy for IM. I don't even run eshell; I prefer running multiple Terminal.apps/gnome-terminals. You don't have to use Emacs just because rockstars use it. I know awesome people who run Windows and use Notepad++.