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I'll never understand why this keeps coming up. Energy consumption is not a waste if it has utility, and the bitcoin network has utility. I suppose you could

I'll never understand why this keeps coming up. Energy consumption is not a waste if it has utility, and the bitcoin network has utility. I suppose you could make this argument for some worthless altcoins, but the difficulty for those is low enough that the amount of energy consumed is negligible.

raverbashing 9y ago
Bitcoin is as worthy as tulips, in terms of intrinsic value. (Of course the worth of paper currency is the same, still, the backing is stronger) What will happen when bitcoins are worth less than the cost to mine them is anyone's guess
- krrrh 9y ago
  Paper currency is backed by the presumed continued existence and effective taxing and police power of the issuing state. It might seem theoretical, but if you benefit from the existence of the state, generate value, and don't pay your share to the state in the currency that they demand it in, then your punishment is anything but.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Right, but the total USD value is much greater than the tax obligations of its citizens.
    - tome 9y ago
      Are you sure? The quickest sources I could find claim it's the other way by a significant margin. > There was approximately $1.56 trillion in circulation as of July 12, 2017, of which $1.52 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm > In FY 2017, total US government revenue, federal, state, and local, is “guesstimated” to be $6.56 trillion http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/total http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/total
      - icebraining 9y ago
        The total USD value is much larger than bank notes. Money in bank accounts and equivalent services is in this context indistinguishable from notes.
        tome 9y ago
        The reserve requirements on balances on more than $115.1 million are 10%. That means with $1.56 trillion outstanding you're looking at a ballpark amount outstanding of $15 trillion in bank deposits. That's still not "much greater" than the $6 trillion annual tax revenue. https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        icebraining 9y ago
        From your link: "Depository institutions must hold reserves in the form of vault cash or deposits with Federal Reserve Banks." Current balance of federal bank deposits is ~$2.3T: https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/ https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/
        tome 9y ago
        Interesting. I'm not sure how to read that balance sheet. For the sake of argument let's say that there's $2.3T is federal bank deposits and $1.5T cash in circulation. If it's all used as reserve balances then that's a total of $38T in bank deposits outstanding. $6T taxing power a year is still not small compared to this!
- stale2002 9y ago
  The intrinsic value of bitcoin is that I can transfer money to anyone in the world, very quickly, for a couple cents of transaction fees, in a way that can't be censored.
- beambot 9y ago
  Your traditional bank account balance is stored as 1's and 0's in a database somewhere. What is the intrinsic value of those bits? Now think of how much energy is "wasted" keeping all those accounts updated, the lights on at all the branch offices, etc.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    The way they store the information is irrelevant. They also have regulation and mandatory checks and balances on their ability to repay current account holders. > Now think of how much energy is "wasted" keeping all those accounts updated, the lights on at all the branch offices, etc. You should do some research before making such uninformed assertion (also banks do more services than just transaction ledgering)
saiya-jin 9y ago
you're funny. what special magical noble utility is there? payments for illegal weapons (used for... murders) and drugs? avoiding taxes and hence breaking a law? maybe it was a noble idea in the beginning, but current cryptocurrency dump is beyond pathetic and all I see are $$ signs in the eyes of involved...
orthecreedence 9y ago
> the bitcoin network has utility Utility and potential for utility are incredibly different. Bitcoin has no utility. I can't safely store value in it, nor can I use it for quick transactions. Its only utility is speculative. The energy consumption is fueling a somewhat randomized, opt-in wealth redistribution service. That's not to say I think bitcoin or its ilk are terrible, but rather that the energy, in most cases, could be better used elsewhere (or like, not at all). It's ok to like bitcoin. But let's not fool ourselves about the bad parts of it.

raverbashing 9y ago

Bitcoin is as worthy as tulips, in terms of intrinsic value. (Of course the worth of paper currency is the same, still, the backing is stronger) What will happen when bitcoins are worth less than the cost to mine them is anyone's guess

krrrh 9y ago
Paper currency is backed by the presumed continued existence and effective taxing and police power of the issuing state. It might seem theoretical, but if you benefit from the existence of the state, generate value, and don't pay your share to the state in the currency that they demand it in, then your punishment is anything but.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Right, but the total USD value is much greater than the tax obligations of its citizens.
  - tome 9y ago
    Are you sure? The quickest sources I could find claim it's the other way by a significant margin. > There was approximately $1.56 trillion in circulation as of July 12, 2017, of which $1.52 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm > In FY 2017, total US government revenue, federal, state, and local, is “guesstimated” to be $6.56 trillion http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/total http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/total
    - icebraining 9y ago
      The total USD value is much larger than bank notes. Money in bank accounts and equivalent services is in this context indistinguishable from notes.
      - tome 9y ago
        The reserve requirements on balances on more than $115.1 million are 10%. That means with $1.56 trillion outstanding you're looking at a ballpark amount outstanding of $15 trillion in bank deposits. That's still not "much greater" than the $6 trillion annual tax revenue. https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        icebraining 9y ago
        From your link: "Depository institutions must hold reserves in the form of vault cash or deposits with Federal Reserve Banks." Current balance of federal bank deposits is ~$2.3T: https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/ https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/
        tome 9y ago
        Interesting. I'm not sure how to read that balance sheet. For the sake of argument let's say that there's $2.3T is federal bank deposits and $1.5T cash in circulation. If it's all used as reserve balances then that's a total of $38T in bank deposits outstanding. $6T taxing power a year is still not small compared to this!
stale2002 9y ago
The intrinsic value of bitcoin is that I can transfer money to anyone in the world, very quickly, for a couple cents of transaction fees, in a way that can't be censored.
beambot 9y ago
Your traditional bank account balance is stored as 1's and 0's in a database somewhere. What is the intrinsic value of those bits? Now think of how much energy is "wasted" keeping all those accounts updated, the lights on at all the branch offices, etc.
- raverbashing 9y ago
  The way they store the information is irrelevant. They also have regulation and mandatory checks and balances on their ability to repay current account holders. > Now think of how much energy is "wasted" keeping all those accounts updated, the lights on at all the branch offices, etc. You should do some research before making such uninformed assertion (also banks do more services than just transaction ledgering)

saiya-jin 9y ago

you're funny. what special magical noble utility is there? payments for illegal weapons (used for... murders) and drugs? avoiding taxes and hence breaking a law? maybe it was a noble idea in the beginning, but current cryptocurrency dump is beyond pathetic and all I see are $$ signs in the eyes of involved...

orthecreedence 9y ago

> the bitcoin network has utility Utility and potential for utility are incredibly different. Bitcoin has no utility. I can't safely store value in it, nor can I use it for quick transactions. Its only utility is speculative. The energy consumption is fueling a somewhat randomized, opt-in wealth redistribution service. That's not to say I think bitcoin or its ilk are terrible, but rather that the energy, in most cases, could be better used elsewhere (or like, not at all). It's ok to like bitcoin. But let's not fool ourselves about the bad parts of it.