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Yes Berlin, i make close to 70k which is decent here for senior devs without management responsibility i guess and that amounts to ~3300 after taxes, health ins

Yes Berlin, i make close to 70k which is decent here for senior devs without management responsibility i guess and that amounts to ~3300 after taxes, health insurance etc. I could save more by getting a private health insurance, but that has its downsides too. The main reason why this works is that Berlin is still really cheap compared to London but even compared to Hamburg or Munich. Rents are getting up though, still the amount of great food and entertainment for relatively cheap makes it easy to live with that salary. I read an article from Buffer where they equaled 60k in Berlin to about 120k in SF or NY. I also think salaries in London are not substantially higher, while the city is so much more expensive. I am still looking to go contracting at some point to make more money to raise a family, but for now while sharing an apartment with my girlfriend, it's decent money. Most of Berlin's working population gets far lower wages anyway, even in startups outside of development so for me as someone without an degree (yet), it always feels weird to earn substantially more than people that have a Masters in Business/Marketing.

zerr 9y ago
The bad thing in Berlin is that 60-70K is really a ceiling, if you want to stay in non-managerial engineering, and that amount is not something unrealistic for engineers living in cheaper parts of the world working remotely, so there is not much incentive to move to Berlin. Btw, why do you find London much expensive? I mean, you can rent (or mortgage) a decent apartment in the nice district for ~600 GBP per month. And the food, goods, appliances, etc... is similar, or cheaper. And most importantly - people speak English! :) The language factor was a revelation for me, after spending some time on the mainland Europe.
- Swinx43 9y ago
  Just out of interest where do you find a decent apartment in London to rent for £600 or to buy at a mortgage repayment that low? From my experience that is definitely not possible.
- piva00 9y ago
  Where did you get the figure of 600 GBP to rent something decent (decent apartment + commute time) in London? Had two friends living and working there, both left because they were spending 1000+ GBP to share houses or flats (both are married) with some other couples or people just so they could keep their commute under 30-40 minutes. Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands also speak very good English and it's a quite nice experience to have the chance to learn a new language.
- mstade 9y ago
  No way you find a nice place to live in London for £600, especially not a place of your own. If anything, you might find a room somewhere, but it's probably not going to be nice and it's likely not even going to be in London. If you commute by long distance rail for at least an hour, an hour and a half maybe, to some small town way outside of London maybe you'll find something at that cost – but surely not in London proper. My rents over the years in London where, per month, in order of when I lived there: - apartment hotel studio in Limehouse: ~£2000-2500 - room in shared flat in Queensway: £1000 - 1-bed in Canary Wharf: ~£1650 (moved after a year because they wanted to back my rent by about 20%) - studio in Angel: ~£1200 - basement studio in Highbury&Islington: ~£1350 The studio in Angel was unbelievably cheap for a brand new building in a nice neighborhood. I was the first tenant. It had one of those beds you flip down from the wall kind of thing. Sounds off putting but it was actually a really smart feature, made the place feel like a 1-bed.
  - zerr 9y ago
    I'm talking more about Ilford, Barking, Wembley, etc...
    - Swinx43 9y ago
      Sorry but those are definitely not what counts as nice areas in London. I also doubt you would find something for £600 in some of those areas today.
      - zerr 9y ago
        It's not posh, but definitely nice, quiet and family-friendly I think. And the air seemed fresher compared to the city. Probably the rent will be bit higher, but the mortgage was ~600 (several months ago) for a nice two-bedroom apartment.
      - mstade 9y ago
        I too doubted this, but I suppose it is possible, though the pickings are slim at best: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/map.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E87490&maxPrice=600&numberOfPropertiesPerPage=499&radius=10.0&propertyTypes=bungalow%2Cdetached%2Cflat%2Cpark-home%2Csemi-detached%2Cterraced&includeLetAgreed=false&viewType=MAP&dontShow=houseShare&letType=longTerm&viewport=-1.20263%2C0.774913%2C51.2122%2C51.8257 http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/map.html?locatio... Also note a lot of these would be likely £600+ since this doesn't show additional fees (estate agent, taxes etc.) Now, this may seem like an abundance of results – but a number of these listings are actually house shares, parking lots, garages etc. Maybe you'd be ok with sharing a house (I wouldn't) but I'm sure we can all agree living in parking space is out of the question. So maybe it's doable, but I think it'd be really hard work trying to find a place that's not kept together with shoe string and duct tape, while being in a decent area with a decent commute.
- kahnpro 9y ago
  You're crazy if you think you can find an apartment for that price in London... For £600 you can get a small room in a flatshare. Maybe a tiny studio or nice room really far from the centre. But a decent apartment in a nice district? Double that number and start from there... more realistic is 3x or 4x.
Swinx43 9y ago
Fantastic, thank you very much for replying. It is true that Berlin is much better than London at that salary range. The average London tech job really doesn't pay enough to have as nice a life in London as you can have in Berlin for the same money. I would be very interested to hear your view on how the contracting market is in Berlin.
- kayoone 9y ago
  There are a lot of contracting gigs and it should be easy to find stuff if you are experienced in web frontend, backend or mobile development. Hourly rates go from 45-80 EUR/h for "normal" dev work depending on your experience and can be quite a bit higher for specialized stuff like Data science/Machine Learning. Hope that helps, let me know if you have more questions.

zerr 9y ago

The bad thing in Berlin is that 60-70K is really a ceiling, if you want to stay in non-managerial engineering, and that amount is not something unrealistic for engineers living in cheaper parts of the world working remotely, so there is not much incentive to move to Berlin. Btw, why do you find London much expensive? I mean, you can rent (or mortgage) a decent apartment in the nice district for ~600 GBP per month. And the food, goods, appliances, etc... is similar, or cheaper. And most importantly - people speak English! :) The language factor was a revelation for me, after spending some time on the mainland Europe.

Swinx43 9y ago
Just out of interest where do you find a decent apartment in London to rent for £600 or to buy at a mortgage repayment that low? From my experience that is definitely not possible.
piva00 9y ago
Where did you get the figure of 600 GBP to rent something decent (decent apartment + commute time) in London? Had two friends living and working there, both left because they were spending 1000+ GBP to share houses or flats (both are married) with some other couples or people just so they could keep their commute under 30-40 minutes. Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands also speak very good English and it's a quite nice experience to have the chance to learn a new language.
mstade 9y ago
No way you find a nice place to live in London for £600, especially not a place of your own. If anything, you might find a room somewhere, but it's probably not going to be nice and it's likely not even going to be in London. If you commute by long distance rail for at least an hour, an hour and a half maybe, to some small town way outside of London maybe you'll find something at that cost – but surely not in London proper. My rents over the years in London where, per month, in order of when I lived there: - apartment hotel studio in Limehouse: ~£2000-2500 - room in shared flat in Queensway: £1000 - 1-bed in Canary Wharf: ~£1650 (moved after a year because they wanted to back my rent by about 20%) - studio in Angel: ~£1200 - basement studio in Highbury&Islington: ~£1350 The studio in Angel was unbelievably cheap for a brand new building in a nice neighborhood. I was the first tenant. It had one of those beds you flip down from the wall kind of thing. Sounds off putting but it was actually a really smart feature, made the place feel like a 1-bed.
- zerr 9y ago
  I'm talking more about Ilford, Barking, Wembley, etc...
  - Swinx43 9y ago
    Sorry but those are definitely not what counts as nice areas in London. I also doubt you would find something for £600 in some of those areas today.
    - zerr 9y ago
      It's not posh, but definitely nice, quiet and family-friendly I think. And the air seemed fresher compared to the city. Probably the rent will be bit higher, but the mortgage was ~600 (several months ago) for a nice two-bedroom apartment.
    - mstade 9y ago
      I too doubted this, but I suppose it is possible, though the pickings are slim at best: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/map.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E87490&maxPrice=600&numberOfPropertiesPerPage=499&radius=10.0&propertyTypes=bungalow%2Cdetached%2Cflat%2Cpark-home%2Csemi-detached%2Cterraced&includeLetAgreed=false&viewType=MAP&dontShow=houseShare&letType=longTerm&viewport=-1.20263%2C0.774913%2C51.2122%2C51.8257 http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/map.html?locatio... Also note a lot of these would be likely £600+ since this doesn't show additional fees (estate agent, taxes etc.) Now, this may seem like an abundance of results – but a number of these listings are actually house shares, parking lots, garages etc. Maybe you'd be ok with sharing a house (I wouldn't) but I'm sure we can all agree living in parking space is out of the question. So maybe it's doable, but I think it'd be really hard work trying to find a place that's not kept together with shoe string and duct tape, while being in a decent area with a decent commute.
kahnpro 9y ago
You're crazy if you think you can find an apartment for that price in London... For £600 you can get a small room in a flatshare. Maybe a tiny studio or nice room really far from the centre. But a decent apartment in a nice district? Double that number and start from there... more realistic is 3x or 4x.

Swinx43 9y ago

Fantastic, thank you very much for replying. It is true that Berlin is much better than London at that salary range. The average London tech job really doesn't pay enough to have as nice a life in London as you can have in Berlin for the same money. I would be very interested to hear your view on how the contracting market is in Berlin.

kayoone 9y ago
There are a lot of contracting gigs and it should be easy to find stuff if you are experienced in web frontend, backend or mobile development. Hourly rates go from 45-80 EUR/h for "normal" dev work depending on your experience and can be quite a bit higher for specialized stuff like Data science/Machine Learning. Hope that helps, let me know if you have more questions.