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The problem is that there still are strong systemic biases at work. Once we get that fixed, maybe we can move on to the nitty gritty statistics of exactly what

The problem is that there still are strong systemic biases at work. Once we get that fixed, maybe we can move on to the nitty gritty statistics of exactly what is nature/nurture etc. At this moment it's pointless. It reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ihNLEDiuM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ihNLEDiuM

maehwasu 9y ago
1. The goalposts for how much systemic biases have been "fixed" are moved constantly and predictably. 2. Much of the argument for the existence of systemic biases comes from willful, repeated ignoring of the already extant evidence for nature/nurture. 3. When ignoring evidence no longer suffices, proponents of the systemic bias theory move immediately to unpersoning their opponents as racist/sexist bigots.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  > Much of the argument for the existence of systemic biases comes from willful, repeated ignoring of the already extant evidence for nature/nurture. I feel it is important to point out that this is an important consideration with regards to sex, not race. There is evidence of sexual dimorphism and hormonal differences between the sexes worldwide, but as far as I know there are no such trends between races. From what I understand, genetic diversity differs more within the races than between them.
jamesrcole 9y ago
There's an underlying assumption in this: more freely discussing those topics would hinder progress in overcoming those strong systemic biases. I'm deeply sceptical of that assumption.
- MattRix 9y ago
  What about things like Stereotype Threat? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat If someone knows that people who are similar to them are less likely to have an aptitude for something, they may assume that they also aren't going to be good at that thing. It doesn't matter if the stereotype is true or not.
  - jamesrcole 9y ago
    How do you think that relates to the issue of the strong systemic biases that my comment concerned? I don't see any particular connection. I suppose you might say that freely discussing certain topics might bring this effect into play. That would be a downside. But as with everything there are certain positives and certain negatives. The question is what is the balance of these for a given option (suppress/not-suppress). In my comment I was saying that I'm deeply sceptical that the balance of suppressing certain talk brings you out on top. Pointing out a single benefit (avoiding that effect) doesn't really tell us anything concerning the answer to that larger question.

maehwasu 9y ago

1. The goalposts for how much systemic biases have been "fixed" are moved constantly and predictably. 2. Much of the argument for the existence of systemic biases comes from willful, repeated ignoring of the already extant evidence for nature/nurture. 3. When ignoring evidence no longer suffices, proponents of the systemic bias theory move immediately to unpersoning their opponents as racist/sexist bigots.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
> Much of the argument for the existence of systemic biases comes from willful, repeated ignoring of the already extant evidence for nature/nurture. I feel it is important to point out that this is an important consideration with regards to sex, not race. There is evidence of sexual dimorphism and hormonal differences between the sexes worldwide, but as far as I know there are no such trends between races. From what I understand, genetic diversity differs more within the races than between them.

jamesrcole 9y ago

There's an underlying assumption in this: more freely discussing those topics would hinder progress in overcoming those strong systemic biases. I'm deeply sceptical of that assumption.

MattRix 9y ago
What about things like Stereotype Threat? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat If someone knows that people who are similar to them are less likely to have an aptitude for something, they may assume that they also aren't going to be good at that thing. It doesn't matter if the stereotype is true or not.
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  How do you think that relates to the issue of the strong systemic biases that my comment concerned? I don't see any particular connection. I suppose you might say that freely discussing certain topics might bring this effect into play. That would be a downside. But as with everything there are certain positives and certain negatives. The question is what is the balance of these for a given option (suppress/not-suppress). In my comment I was saying that I'm deeply sceptical that the balance of suppressing certain talk brings you out on top. Pointing out a single benefit (avoiding that effect) doesn't really tell us anything concerning the answer to that larger question.