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Hacker News seems to have interesting collective beliefs such as that it's easier to go to Mars than to turn off the lights when no one is in the room.

by spodek 9y ago

eropple 9y ago
Smelting aluminum requires between 12,500 kWh and 15,000 kWh of electricity per ton of yield. My lights use 8.5 Wh apiece. The notion that consumer savings will make a dent in our problem has a few problems with decimal places. This is, by-and-large, a capital-driven problem. It's probably true that a reduction of individual consumption of stuff would be more beneficial than our energy use, too...but then that creates a new problem for that capital, too. So not only is avoiding the collective-action problem probably easier, but it's more effective, too.
- spodek 9y ago
  1. Working on the different problems you described is not mutually exclusive. 2. How many aluminum smelting plants are there? How many light bulbs? The decimal places seem to go the other way. This Wikipedia page -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aluminium_smelters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aluminium_smelters -- lists a bunch of aluminum smelters. While it says it's incomplete, its existence implies it has most of them. I doubt there is a page listing all the light bulbs. Once habitualized, turning them off takes negligible extra time or effort. 3. I don't mean to be flippant, but are you arguing against conservation?
  - tyingq 9y ago
    I do think there is something of a point there in that combined industrial and commercial use account for a larger portion of overall consumption. But, residential use is still significant. This chart is old, but has a nice quick visualization of where you might want to focus. https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/styles/large/public/2015-08/electricity-consumption-by-sector-commercial-industrial-residential.png https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/styles/large/publ... At least showing that for residential use, upgrading your AC, refrigerator, etc is probably higher impact than focusing on lighting.
  - eropple 9y ago
    1. Agreed, but whataboutism--and you may not mean it that way but your post sure sounded like it--is basically never helpful. 2. OK. Aluminum smelters and oil refineries and frigging box factories and everything else. Start summing up. Those numbers don't show what you want them to show, I'd wager. 3. I'm arguing that it is a hell of a lot better to go after the people who actively benefit from disproportionate use because they are causing the deepest externalities.
    - lostlogin 9y ago
      I don't know if this adds or detracts from what your saying but here in NZ 13% of power usage is aluminium smelting. 44% is industry, 32% commercial and 24% residential. Transmission loses 6% (not sure why the above totals add up to 100%, so it must exclude the losses). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_New_Zealand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_New_Ze...
  - nmeofthestate 9y ago
    I did some back of the envelope calculations and if everyone on the planet runs 1.4 20W lightbulbs (100W equivalent CFL) half the time, that comes to the amount of energy expended on smelting Aluminium. Aluminium per year: 720000GWh 20W (100W equivalent CFL) Lightbulb on half the year: 87.6KWh Aluminium = 8.21917808 × 10e9 lightbulbs Probably wrong in many ways, but I'll post it here anyway.
- ollifi 9y ago
  > My lights use 8.5 Wh apiece. Then again your lights used 40-60w apiece just few years back.
Govindae 9y ago
We have successfully sent robots to Mars, but... I don't really need that light on in the living room.
emodendroket 9y ago
What percentage of electricity consumption do you think is consumed by things like unattended lightbulbs? I'd be surprised if the numbers were at all significant in the grand scheme of things.
PeterisP 9y ago
Neither Mars travel nor reducing energy consumption is going to happen by the individual people magically choosing to do the right thing required for that goal. In general, our societies don't work like that, achieving such things requires coordination to create/enforce appropriate incentives for each individual. Going to Mars requires a large organization (or a bunch of them) creating significant incentives for people to work on that goal, i.e., paying $bignum to many employees and suppliers - or it's not going to happen. In the exact same manner, practically reducing energy consumption would require a large organization (or a bunch of them) creating significant incentives for people to reduce consumption, e.g. governments enforcing a significant carbon tax that raises the cost of electricity so much (or some other policy that brings visible, practical impact on each particular individual depending on their actions) that untold millions of people will be strongly motivated to change their habits - or it's not going happen.

Hacker News seems to have interesting collective beliefs such as that it's easier to go to Mars than to turn off the lights when no one is in the room.

by spodek 9y ago

Hacker News seems to have interesting collective beliefs such as that it's easier to go to Mars than to turn off the lights when no one is in the room.

eropple 9y ago

Smelting aluminum requires between 12,500 kWh and 15,000 kWh of electricity per ton of yield. My lights use 8.5 Wh apiece. The notion that consumer savings will make a dent in our problem has a few problems with decimal places. This is, by-and-large, a capital-driven problem. It's probably true that a reduction of individual consumption of stuff would be more beneficial than our energy use, too...but then that creates a new problem for that capital, too. So not only is avoiding the collective-action problem probably easier, but it's more effective, too.

spodek 9y ago
1. Working on the different problems you described is not mutually exclusive. 2. How many aluminum smelting plants are there? How many light bulbs? The decimal places seem to go the other way. This Wikipedia page -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aluminium_smelters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aluminium_smelters -- lists a bunch of aluminum smelters. While it says it's incomplete, its existence implies it has most of them. I doubt there is a page listing all the light bulbs. Once habitualized, turning them off takes negligible extra time or effort. 3. I don't mean to be flippant, but are you arguing against conservation?
- tyingq 9y ago
  I do think there is something of a point there in that combined industrial and commercial use account for a larger portion of overall consumption. But, residential use is still significant. This chart is old, but has a nice quick visualization of where you might want to focus. https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/styles/large/public/2015-08/electricity-consumption-by-sector-commercial-industrial-residential.png https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/styles/large/publ... At least showing that for residential use, upgrading your AC, refrigerator, etc is probably higher impact than focusing on lighting.
- eropple 9y ago
  1. Agreed, but whataboutism--and you may not mean it that way but your post sure sounded like it--is basically never helpful. 2. OK. Aluminum smelters and oil refineries and frigging box factories and everything else. Start summing up. Those numbers don't show what you want them to show, I'd wager. 3. I'm arguing that it is a hell of a lot better to go after the people who actively benefit from disproportionate use because they are causing the deepest externalities.
  - lostlogin 9y ago
    I don't know if this adds or detracts from what your saying but here in NZ 13% of power usage is aluminium smelting. 44% is industry, 32% commercial and 24% residential. Transmission loses 6% (not sure why the above totals add up to 100%, so it must exclude the losses). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_New_Zealand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_New_Ze...
- nmeofthestate 9y ago
  I did some back of the envelope calculations and if everyone on the planet runs 1.4 20W lightbulbs (100W equivalent CFL) half the time, that comes to the amount of energy expended on smelting Aluminium. Aluminium per year: 720000GWh 20W (100W equivalent CFL) Lightbulb on half the year: 87.6KWh Aluminium = 8.21917808 × 10e9 lightbulbs Probably wrong in many ways, but I'll post it here anyway.
ollifi 9y ago
> My lights use 8.5 Wh apiece. Then again your lights used 40-60w apiece just few years back.

Govindae 9y ago

We have successfully sent robots to Mars, but... I don't really need that light on in the living room.

emodendroket 9y ago

What percentage of electricity consumption do you think is consumed by things like unattended lightbulbs? I'd be surprised if the numbers were at all significant in the grand scheme of things.

PeterisP 9y ago

Neither Mars travel nor reducing energy consumption is going to happen by the individual people magically choosing to do the right thing required for that goal. In general, our societies don't work like that, achieving such things requires coordination to create/enforce appropriate incentives for each individual. Going to Mars requires a large organization (or a bunch of them) creating significant incentives for people to work on that goal, i.e., paying $bignum to many employees and suppliers - or it's not going to happen. In the exact same manner, practically reducing energy consumption would require a large organization (or a bunch of them) creating significant incentives for people to reduce consumption, e.g. governments enforcing a significant carbon tax that raises the cost of electricity so much (or some other policy that brings visible, practical impact on each particular individual depending on their actions) that untold millions of people will be strongly motivated to change their habits - or it's not going happen.