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Six figures in San Francisco is a joke. I was working out of Raleigh, NC until recently, with a take home pay w/benefits around $85k. I calculated to have an eq
by Afforess 9y ago
Six figures in San Francisco is a joke. I was working out of Raleigh, NC until recently, with a take home pay w/benefits around $85k. I calculated to have an equivalent standard of living and spending money in SF, I would need to take home around 150-160k. Equivalent! That includes no raise over my previous position!
Housing was a large part of it, but equally problematic was taxes. The more you make, each extra marginal dollar is taxed at the highest bracket. So each marginal dollar earned goes a little bit less far. Combined, the high cost-of-living and marginal tax rates make SF extremely expensive. I laugh at 120k offers in SF, that's like making 65k in a reasonable city.
- nwatson 9y agoI live in North Carolina (not in the tech-heavy part) and "work in" SF Bay Area ... it's a good situation.
- diplocorp 9y agoDo you fly between NC and SF every day?
- tomtang0514 9y agoI believe what he means is he work remotely for a SF company and gets SF pay.
- taternuts 9y agoNow that truly is the dream. Probably make enough extra income to rent your own place in a We-Work or something similar too if you don't like working from home as much and still bank most of the difference.
- nwatson 9y agoYep, I have a very good deal at this co-working place: http://flywheelcoworking.com/ http://flywheelcoworking.com/ They're also very involved in the community and encourage a lot of small companies. [Edit] I'll also say a good perk is this awesome beer on tap for free to members: https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/11036/65993/ https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/11036/65993/ ... going to go get one right now! Wish you were here to join!
- surge 9y agoYou live in the same city I do!
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- remote_sf_ 9y agoI do the same but in Virginia. Unfortunately, living close to D.C. is very expensive so I don't enjoy the benefit as much -- but the work itself is way better than yet another boring government contracting job that you can not talk about.
- akhilcacharya 9y agoA alumnus of my school does the same thing, except he works out of Google Chapel Hill while managing a Mountain View team.
- morgante 9y agoI wish I enjoyed remote work more, since I've managed to get contracts like that but really missed the feeling of working with a team in an office.
- nwatson 9y agoThat is the real downside to remote work. I used to enjoy frequent outings and lunch time with co-workers.
- sidlls 9y agoThat's not accurate. My gross before moving out here was less than your net. I doubled that with the move. A larger fraction of my take home is consumed by rent. That take home is less than twice my previous take home because of state taxes. Food, utilities and commute costs are all about the same. (Edit) My wife (who's salary didn't change when we moved) and I support a family of four, including private school tuition and service a mountain of school and medical debt and live just fine. And I'm saving twice as much. Our gross household income is in the neighborhood of $200k, give or take. Although I do agree that the common low $100k range for engineers is a joke. We're underpaid by a significant factor. Just like most other low status workers.
- sheepmullet 9y agoCan you break it down for us? I pay over $4k/month for a 3 bedroom house. Private school is what? 8-10k/year per kid? So $32-$40k/year?
- sjg007 9y agoYeah it doesn't make sense I guess 160k takehone is 250k salary maybe
- nogbit 9y agolet me shed some tears while you see the need to factor in private school.
- sheepmullet 9y agoPlease don't troll. I was asking how the parent commenter could afford private school and still save a significant amount. By the way most people on a visa have to pay for private school (as it should be - but my point is it's often not a luxury).
- sidlls 9y agoSounds about right. I mean, I don't want to get too detailed, but our take home after taxes, 401k/retirement, etc. covers the two expenses you mentioned and leaves plenty left over for other living expenses and debt service.
- bradleyjg 9y agoHow do you figure out an equivalent standard of living? For example, in housing, if you were living in a standalone house in the second most desirable neighborhood of Raleigh of 2000 square feet on a quarter acre lot, is the equivalent a standalone in the second most desirable neighborhood of San Francisco of 2000 square feet on a quarter acre lot? If not, how do you define equivalent?
- Afforess 9y agoI rented before, so I considered equivalent to be the same sqft (900f sqft), same quality neighborhood. I'm sure you could save some by getting a roommate or smaller living arrangements, but that wasn't what I wanted to compare.
- humanrebar 9y agoThat's totally a personal call. Some people would be OK trading a bedroom and bathroom to be able to walk home from the bar. Others wouldn't. But the obvious criteria universally apply: commute time, square footage of the residence, crime rate in the area, quality of the local school district (YMMV), etc. Most people when moving to a more expensive city compromise at least a little on all of those to keep rent manageable. So maybe a Bay Area resident spends three times as much on housing but they get half as much square footage and a much longer commute.
- bradleyjg 9y agoI agree that is the best way to think about it, but it means discussions about CoL differences are inherently subjective. Perhaps, the least bad way to figure out what an equivalent salary in RDU and the Bay Area is to use revealed preferences and look at people that move between the two areas and what they are paid in either city.
- _seemethere 9y ago150-160k is pretty reasonable for salary in the city. Most engineers I know are making around that or higher.
- abtinf 9y agoPerhaps its been a long time since you calculated those numbers, or you don't have first hand familiarity with the SF bay area, but your 2x estimate is woefully under comp. For the general bay area, you need to add another x. And if want to live in SF proper, add still another x. The SF bay area is such an extreme outlier that none of the cost of living comparison calculators are accurate. Taxes, housing, childcare, quality of schools, gas prices, and on and on and on pile onto the expense. Even things like traffic tickets add up: a red light ticket in California will cost over $500 before even factoring in higher insurance costs; this is roughly quintuple most of the country. I pay less than $0.08/kWh for electricity; bay area rates are 3-4x that. I lived in the bay area for a long time before moving to a suburb of Seattle, where I own a nice home and live near excellent schools. I estimate that I would have to make at least 2.5x more to maintain the same standard of living in the bay area (forget about SF).
- acchow 9y agoWhich suburb of Seattle? Your 2.5x figure is exaggerated.
- abtinf 9y agoGig Harbor, which is about as far from Seattle as Sunnyvale is to SF.
- abtinf 9y agoHow much do you think a home like this would list for in the bay area? https://www.redfin.com/WA/Gig-Harbor/2403-20th-Avenue-Ct-NW-98335/home/2808851 https://www.redfin.com/WA/Gig-Harbor/2403-20th-Avenue-Ct-NW-...
- acchow 9y agoThat is >40 miles from Seattle. Here's a comparable home in Vallejo for 10% more (but an extra bedroom) in Vallejo, which is 30 miles from SF or 25 miles from Berkeley https://www.redfin.com/CA/Vallejo/9311-Big-Ben-Ct-94591/home/2630156 https://www.redfin.com/CA/Vallejo/9311-Big-Ben-Ct-94591/home...
- kafkaesq 9y agoI laugh at 120k offers in SF, that's like making 65k in a reasonable city. Even if you think you can easily do better, you shouldn't "laugh" at salary offers in that range. The vast majority of people in the U.S. won't ever -- at their current (and for many, basically immutable) education level -- stand a chance of making anywhere near that much. And being as it's just a matter of blind luck that we've been born at a certain time and place that enables us to make that kind of a salary. For basically playing with shiny toys all day, and all.
- seanp2k2 9y agoThe point is that you don't get to keep much of it. Basically, unless you're making >$200k or so (which is def possible and not st all unreasonable for engineers or management out here) , you might be able to save more post-tax post-expenses elsewhere. The real game to be in here is real estate. Don't mine the gold, sell the shovels.
- kafkaesq 9y agoBut people who will basically never be able to make that kind of money don't have that dilemma. And the "game" for them is simply to survive.
- vecinu 9y agoIsn't that a strawman argument though? The discussion is around engineers making the most out of their salary so why would be lump in folks with different education / jobs?
- closeparen 9y agoThe point is that you aren't more fortunate with a nominally higher salary if your baseline (not luxury) costs consume it all. I'm doing about the same as anyone else who can barely afford to rent a studio and can't afford to have a car or travel. Someone with a third of my salary gets a house, a car, and more disposable income which goes further. The one area where I'm really blowing them out of the water is my $5/mo health insurance that makes all care effectively free. That's a function of the company, though, not the salary. Our much lower paid, lower skilled workers in satellite offices get the same benefits package.
- jrs95 9y agoI'm in a similar situation in Columbus, OH. The jobs are here are generally more boring, but ultimately more profitable, at least for me. Especially given that we have Ohio State here, I wouldn't be surprised if the job market continued to improve here. I don't think I'd start a business anywhere else.
- pbarnes_1 9y agoTaxes are the least of your problems in SF. It's not even a consideration and probably the wrong optimization to make when deciding where to live. There's a reason most US billionaires live in CA or NY.
- GoodJokes 9y ago“I laugh at 120k offers in SF, that’s like making 65k in a reasonable city.” Wow, you are so cool.