10 ms·
Engineers in San Francisco Have Mediocre Take Home Pay
- tanilama 9y agoWell, that is how it is. Meaning a developer, if comparing to the local standard is a normal job that nothing to envoy about.
- andrewmunn 9y agoI wish tools like this would account for equity. Base salary in the Bay area has never been particularly high compared to comparable cities, but in my admittedly anecdotal experience, The Bay Area has the highest equity compensation of anywhere in the US.
- wcdolphin 9y agoWhat is this based upon? Do tech companies give different equity if you e.g. Work out of the boulder office? I've been looking for an excuse to move to CO.
- shawndumas 9y agoagreed; more than half my compensation comes in the form of RSUs and bonuses.
- nutbutter 9y agoBut is the equity actually worth anything?
- shawndumas 9y agoestablished companies (FAANG) come as RSUs that vest monthly or quarterly. so yeah, real money.
- cdkee 9y agoYou can only sell once a quarter though!
- shawndumas 9y agonot if you enroll in auto-sell. mine vest and sell monthly.
- outside1234 9y agoThat's only a Google thing. At Microsoft, for example, you can sell all the time.
- cdkee 9y agoThere's no trading windows for insiders?
- sidlls 9y agoSo? Just budget the proceeds. If you need a bit of extra help not spending it all at once it's not that hard to set up an automatic transfer on a monthly interval with a bank. Just set it up for {Proceeds} / 3 for three transfers.
- dmoy 9y agoLike 30% or more of my comp is equity (autosold the instant I get it). I make more in equity alone than I would in total if I was back at my hometown.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- deedubaya 9y agoEquity should only count as a lottery ticket unless the company has IPO'ed and there is a place for the employee to actually value and sell those shares. One could argue that if a company has had a public offering, they probably aren't at the low end of this pay scale anyway, but that's more speculative.
- savanaly 9y agoI mean...a really, really good lottery ticket which has a much higher chance of paying out than your standard powerball ticket. It's true that there is variance in your pay if it's partially made up of equity but it's clearly not worth nothing, which is how I would evaluate a lottery ticket in practicality.
- fred_is_fred 9y agoIt's more like a lottery ticket where a VC can come in and say sorry you now have 0.001 lottery tickets and if you hit a jackpot, I get the first $50M of it before we split the rest of the pot.
- ryandrake 9y agoHard to compare apples to apples with equity. Some equity is worth close to nothing, others (RSU) are pretty much just like cash. Many places give a little equity every year, others only your first few years, then you don't get any anymore (so does that equity count in your "total" or not?), for others it's totally random and variable.
- STRiDEX 9y agoAgreed. 30-40% of my total comp is equity and bonus and I've got friends with higher at big papa G and the likes.
- wutbrodo 9y agoYea, by the time I left Google, I was making about 50% of my gross pay in equity, and this equity was basically as liquid as cash (the difference being the volatility).
- scarmig 9y agoAm I crazy in thinking the listed comp is crazy low? Not disputing that the COL is too damn high, but the only people I know making that little are very early in their careers and/or working for a startup, and that's be valuing their equity at 0 (which is probably an appropriate valuation). Or maybe I'm just in a weird bubble.
- shawndumas 9y agoas a hiring manager it looks very low to me as well.
- acchow 9y agoPretty sure it fails to take into account equity
- mpim 9y agoThis is based on the latest U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics data: https://www.mytrove.com/t/cheddar-counter/methodology https://www.mytrove.com/t/cheddar-counter/methodology
- ryandrake 9y agoAccording to Glassdoor[1] and Payscale[2], the median/average for a software engineer in SF (not counting equity) is around $110K. So the SF number seems in the ballpark, a little high. 1: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en... 2: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/a5e48575/San-Francisco-CA http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...
- ChuckMcM 9y agoNot 'crazy low'. But it also depends on how you 'share' how much you're making. Do you include the bonus you got (even though it might not be there next year?) do you include what your RSUs count for even though when you go to sell them they might be worth less than when they vested? Etc.
- trjordan 9y agoSure, living and working in the city sucks. But the Bay Area as a whole? Very Good. https://www.mytrove.com/ca/the-bay-area/cheddar/software-application-developers https://www.mytrove.com/ca/the-bay-area/cheddar/software-app...
- aphextron 9y agoEast Bay (El Cerrito/Albany/Berkeley) is where it's at. Great weather, no suburban sprawl hell, easy commute to anywhere, great food and culture, top notch schools, decent rents. Every time I try to leave this place I just can't justify it.
- dasil003 9y agoThe problem with Berkeley is that the rental stock is shit and overpriced because they know plenty of students are price insensitive and have no clue about the market. However if you stay on top of craigslist you can eventually get lucky enough to find something amazing with a better commute to Fidi/Soma than half the city.
- vecinu 9y agoToo bad you depend on the bridge and the commute is hell. Taking BART in is also hell, unfortunately.
- el_benhameen 9y agoDo you rent or own? I've been looking to buy in the East Bay, but it's becoming extremely difficult to find something that an engineer's salary can afford that's in a good school district and is of a reasonable size.
- aphextron 9y agoI rent in El Cerrito but we've been looking at buying. It's really the best option around here IMO. Decent 3 bedrooms in a wonderful neighborhood can still be had for < $700k. Case in point: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/El-Cerrito-CA/fsba,fsbo,new_lt/house_type/18525815_zpid/51858_rid/1-_beds/1-_baths/37.947141,-122.256289,37.88891,-122.348557_rect/13_zm/ https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/El-Cerrito-CA/fsba,fsb...
- bradlys 9y agoI find this pretty off for silicon valley. <$1000/month for housing? Even with utilities, this is still nothing. If you added in all of misc, it'd be more realistic. Wasn't aware that salaries in Seattle had risen to $130k+ so quickly either. I remember starting at $80k being a good salary there just 3-4 years ago.
- zippergz 9y agoI don't know what the average is, but I was making around 130k in Seattle 10 years ago and I don't think I was a huge outlier.
- julienb_sea 9y ago130k or more is pretty normal after 2-4 years into a career in Sea. Starting salaries around here are 100k for well reputed companies.
- akhilcacharya 9y agoAmazon total comp for new grads starts at ~$130 today.
- Afforess 9y agoSix figures in San Francisco is a joke. I was working out of Raleigh, NC until recently, with a take home pay w/benefits around $85k. I calculated to have an equivalent standard of living and spending money in SF, I would need to take home around 150-160k. Equivalent! That includes no raise over my previous position! Housing was a large part of it, but equally problematic was taxes. The more you make, each extra marginal dollar is taxed at the highest bracket. So each marginal dollar earned goes a little bit less far. Combined, the high cost-of-living and marginal tax rates make SF extremely expensive. I laugh at 120k offers in SF, that's like making 65k in a reasonable city.
- nwatson 9y agoI live in North Carolina (not in the tech-heavy part) and "work in" SF Bay Area ... it's a good situation.
- diplocorp 9y agoDo you fly between NC and SF every day?
- tomtang0514 9y agoI believe what he means is he work remotely for a SF company and gets SF pay.
- taternuts 9y agoNow that truly is the dream. Probably make enough extra income to rent your own place in a We-Work or something similar too if you don't like working from home as much and still bank most of the difference.
- nwatson 9y agoYep, I have a very good deal at this co-working place: http://flywheelcoworking.com/ http://flywheelcoworking.com/ They're also very involved in the community and encourage a lot of small companies. [Edit] I'll also say a good perk is this awesome beer on tap for free to members: https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/11036/65993/ https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/11036/65993/ ... going to go get one right now! Wish you were here to join!
- locust101 9y agoThis is wayyy off in housing. I don't know anyone who is paying 10k a year for rent in santa clara county. This is the rent if you are sharing a house with 5 other people in bad parts of san jose. Peninsula rents are almost the same as SF.
- jkimmel 9y agoLikewise for SF, their estimate is $1250/month, which will rent you a garage or a converted living room with a curtain separating it from the kitchen in the far reaches of the city. As a grad student, this is about my budget for housing, and I promise you I'm not exaggerating.
- aphextron 9y ago>Likewise for SF, their estimate is $1250/month, which will rent you a garage or a converted living room with a curtain separating it from the kitchen in the far reaches of the city. You found a garage for $1250? Link? Is there an open house soon?
- fweespeech 9y agoAs someone who pays $1800/month in rent, I believe you.
- wutbrodo 9y ago> Likewise for SF, their estimate is $1250/month, which will rent you a garage or a converted living room with a curtain separating it from the kitchen in the far reaches of the city. Jeez, this is a ridiculous estimate. I have a 2BR on the edge of downtown that has big bedrooms with bay windows, a solarium, a nice big kitchen with granite counters, quite a bit of living space, and the only downside is an old building. Me and my flatmate each pay around $1300, BUT that's after 6 years of rent control. The last time I checked, market rent on this place was almost double what we pay. The idea that this is a normal price for anywhere else in SF is kind of silly.
- Dobbs 9y agoYea the info for Seattle is also really off. 10k for a years rent. I'm paying 2400 a month for a two bed flat. You could definitely get it down quite a bit but I doubt you can get anything decent for around $900 a month.
- angersock 9y agoGod bless Texas. (please don't come here and screw it up for us.)
- magic_beans 9y agoCan't say it's high on my list of places to live, frankly. My mother already escaped, and never looked back.
- dmode 9y agoYou will be ok. I have no intention of moving there
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- pbarnes_1 9y agoHard pass. ;)
- bitL 9y agoWhen you realize your take home in Germany is higher than in San Francisco in absolute numbers despite 50% income tax... Mindblowing.
- tomschlick 9y ago> 50% income tax Thats insane
- FigBug 9y agoThey aren't 50%, highest tax bracket is 45% over 250001 EUR or 294440 USD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Income_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Income_tax Church tax could be another 9% if you are a member of a church. Compare to the US where top tax rate is 39.6% + 12.3% = 51.9% in California.
- anarazel 9y ago>> 50% income tax > Thats insane It's 45%, and it's for the bracket above 254.447€ as a single. I make decent money in SF, and made decent money in Germany. My effective taxe rate is about the same.
- jorgemf 9y agoIt depends. Bear in mind those taxes include a public health system and public education among other things.
- jacobush 9y agoWhen you put it like that. But a big chunk of that is (I presume) mandatory pensions payments? So just a little insane?
- revelation 9y agoAlso healthcare. Though taxes are certainly higher; you absolutely have to consider 19% VAT vs. 8%? if at all sales tax and other taxes.
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- idlewords 9y agoLiving in San Francisco is a luxury people trade discretionary income for.
- danielvinson 9y agoI find their methodology to be seriously flawed. It doesn't matter what dataset you are using to base it off of, if you think that the average person pays $1,263 per year in total healthcare costs you're crazy. I'm paying something like 3 times that as a very healthy 20-something.
- CGamesPlay 9y agoThere's probably some bimodality here. Nobody pays 104/mo in insurance but I bet 50% pay more and 50% pay $0/mo (due to their employer paying it).
- danielvinson 9y agoIs it common that employers pay 100% of healthcare costs? I've never heard of a company doing that outside of big tech companies. I work at a startup and for us its about 50/50 employer/employee contribution, which is similar to the deal I've gotten everywhere I've ever worked.
- JauntTrooper 9y ago$10,800 for a family of 3 here. :-/ And that doesn't count the generous employer-paid portion.
- 2pointsomone 9y agoSo, fun observation. The site estimates the housing cost for year to be ~$18k. LOL. It's kinda difficult to get a room (in a shared apartment) in an accessible part of SF at that rate today. I guess it's worse than mediocre.
- pmdev03 9y agoLooks like Seattle it the best for software engineers? Don't care how much I'd make in Seattle.. I'll pass on flannels and death cab for cutie.
- machrider 9y agoThe cost of living is about to skyrocket in Seattle, if I had to guess.
- neom 9y agoThe Manhattan one is quite amusing: https://www.mytrove.com/ny/manhattan/cheddar/software-application-developers https://www.mytrove.com/ny/manhattan/cheddar/software-applic...
- macNchz 9y agoIt includes $19k of "Misc." in the "Basic Expenses" category, which is nearly $10k more than most other cities. It's unclear what that is exactly, but they say the data comes from expenditures from "professional and executive households". I wonder if it says more about the behavior of professionals and executives living in Manhattan than the true cost of just living there. Also the transportation category for Manhattan is 50% more than the NY Metro overall, which is weird given that one of the benefits of living in Manhattan is not needing to own a car.
- jcranberry 9y agoI've never seen such bullshit! I live in Chinatown with a 100k salary. According to this website the median is 111k salary, with 11k discretionary income. I have a decent place in Manhattan (Chinatown), which I'm paying $800/mo for (split with 2 friends), absolutely not paying 5.3k/y for transportation (3 subway cards a month??), and I have NO idea what these mystical $1500/mo miscellaneous expenses are, unless they could be attributed to savings, $600/mo on groceries is just feckless profligacy--and $500/mo on utilities??? WTF!??? I have so much discretionary income I literally have nothing to do with it except save/reinvest. My two roommates constantly make fun of me for being a spendthrift, but according to this website I must be in the top 25 penny-pinchers in Manhattan...
- soared 9y agoBig FYI for all you devs - this is how content marketing is done correctly. This page is quality content (similar strategies provide useful tools) that is tangentially related to a companies product/service. BUT there is no call to action, no pitch, and no mention of the actual company being a company - it comes off as a publisher. The benefits to this are: links for SEO, links/blogs/news articles about it, discussion around the topic, and some percent of users who are interested in the subject will poke around the site for more info... and they'll find out this company will store and move your belongings for you. The best example I can think of is (was) crew.co https://crew.co/blog/how-side-projects-saved-our-startup/ https://crew.co/blog/how-side-projects-saved-our-startup/
- bduerst 9y agoBay Area average apparently has a "Very Good Cheddar" rating https://www.mytrove.com/ca/the-bay-area/cheddar/software-application-developers https://www.mytrove.com/ca/the-bay-area/cheddar/software-app...
- Overtonwindow 9y agoThat's strange. When you click on the next dot over, for The Bay Area, it jumps to "excellent" with discretionary income of $42,329.
- patorjk 9y agoAccording to the "Methodology" section, the data is based on: > May 2016 Metropolitan and Nonmetropolitan Area Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), U.S. Department of Labor. Unless otherwise specified, the salary is the “Mean Annual Wage” column of the data set. This data also has a 75th percentile and 90th percentile column. It would be cool if the visualization worked with those parts of the data too, because the salary gap between the 50th percentile and the 90th percentile can sometimes be huge.
- emerged 9y agoI wound up deciding to live in the midwest while working remotely for California companies. Now it's as if my salary has gone up by 200-300%. The midwest gets an incredible amount of hate from west coasters, but meanwhile I'm living a life which feels like an easy paradise compared to the rat race back on the west coast.
- subrat_rout 9y agoThe trove data for housing is way off. Especially for cities like NY or SF. Where in San Francisco can you find a place to rent for $18k/year or $1500/month?
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- forkLding 9y agoQuestions about the data aside, I really like the Data visualization UI and UX, its very nice-to-use and you play around with it without thinking. However, whenever it shows "Physics Teachers and Business Teachers" and says they are for postsecondary, I think they mean professors for college or other postsecondary education because teachers tend to mislead and bring up images of highschool teachers instead.
- throwaway634774 9y agoI make $140k in Detroit. With decent 401k benefits, insurance, flex time, remote twice a week. I'm a programmer working for just a regular company. Building your typical enterprise CRUD app. I know people making $190k 45 minutes away in Ann Arbor. I've often been tempted by the valley but it's just not worth it. I'll need to make $250k cash at the very least.
- GoodJokes 9y agoAnd tech people wonder why they are so often vilified. A whole thread devoted to whining about 6 figure incomes. Y’all need some perspective. Talk about entitled.