4 ms·

When has that ever not been the case in the workplace? Every workplace has norms and values where someone who runs afoul of them may be fired. Norms change ov

When has that ever not been the case in the workplace? Every workplace has norms and values where someone who runs afoul of them may be fired. Norms change over time. There was a time when it would've been okay to use the 'n' word to insult black people in many work places, now it's not okay. There was a time when lewd and demeaning talk about women was ok in the workplace, now it's not. The people who sign the checks have always been able to define what is and is not acceptable in the workplace. Some people are feeling caught out because the line has moved, but it has always been there.

maehwasu 9y ago
Completely agree. The point here is that the situation isn't static: many people don't like what is now ok in the workplace, and are trying to shift it back. Simply calling them "racist" or "sexist" as if that ends the discussion completely misses the point.
- GVIrish 9y ago
  Yeah and maybe what needs to happen is people need to talk more about how 'the line' is moving so people can understand better where people are coming from. I agree that labeling people as racist or sexist for being caught out by shifting norms is not productive, but at the same time people need to put effort into empathizing with others and educating themselves. There are jokes I would've made 10 years ago I wouldn't make now. There are comments from others that might not have set off any alarms before, but now I know more about why they might be exclusionary or hurtful. Ultimately it's a process. Which is why maybe a guy like Damore shouldn't be made to run the internet pitchfork and torch gauntlet for what he did. Maybe it could've been a teachable moment instead of a firing. But the other side of that is that I don't know if there were other components to his firing that we haven't heard yet.
  - marrs 9y ago
    I agree that labeling people as racist or sexist for being caught out by shifting norms is not productive, but at the same time people need to put effort into empathizing with others and educating themselves. Maybe that cuts both ways
sheepmullet 9y ago
The difference is senior leadership lying through their teeth about valuing diversity of opinion.
- GVIrish 9y ago
  But surely not all opinions are welcome in the workplace. If someone spread a document that said, 'we shouldn't hire muslims because we can't trust their loyalties', surely expressing that opinion would merit firing. And there's also the question of how opinions are expressed. When you post something publicly for wide distribution, there's much less room to walk things back or to discreetly talk through things. Damore intended for his document to have impact, which it did. But that also means that if the impact is negative it's more likely to lead to his dismissal. I'm not sure he should have been fired in this case but I can see why it was done.
  - sheepmullet 9y ago
    > If someone spread a document that said, 'we shouldn't hire muslims because we can't trust their loyalties' That escalated quickly! I think a closer example is someone saying "I support the trump immigration ban". With the far left crowd who have been hyped up by the media this causes the same feelings as saying "I want to ban Muslims" and "I hate Muslims". > And there's also the question of how opinions are expressed. That's true. I'm not suprised he was fired. From reading some of the leaked internal posts it looks like there is significant bullying of conservatives. It doesn't look good for Google. Wage fixing, being investigated for pay gap issues, clearly bully conservatives, etc. Hopefully a court case can reveal the truth.
    - slededit 9y ago
      When you have quotes from key people like Giuliani saying on national TV: “So when [Trump] first announced it, he said, 'Muslim ban.' He called me up. He said, 'Put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally.'" There is strong evidence the immigration ban is targeted at Muslims. If it weren't for quotes like that Trump wouldn't have had an issue with the courts.
Chris2048 9y ago
> When has that ever not been the case in the workplace In progressive companies like google. > There was a time when And it changed because the public became outraged over it, and individuals concerned fought back with social and legal options. Same may happen here too.

maehwasu 9y ago

Completely agree. The point here is that the situation isn't static: many people don't like what is now ok in the workplace, and are trying to shift it back. Simply calling them "racist" or "sexist" as if that ends the discussion completely misses the point.

GVIrish 9y ago
Yeah and maybe what needs to happen is people need to talk more about how 'the line' is moving so people can understand better where people are coming from. I agree that labeling people as racist or sexist for being caught out by shifting norms is not productive, but at the same time people need to put effort into empathizing with others and educating themselves. There are jokes I would've made 10 years ago I wouldn't make now. There are comments from others that might not have set off any alarms before, but now I know more about why they might be exclusionary or hurtful. Ultimately it's a process. Which is why maybe a guy like Damore shouldn't be made to run the internet pitchfork and torch gauntlet for what he did. Maybe it could've been a teachable moment instead of a firing. But the other side of that is that I don't know if there were other components to his firing that we haven't heard yet.
- marrs 9y ago
  I agree that labeling people as racist or sexist for being caught out by shifting norms is not productive, but at the same time people need to put effort into empathizing with others and educating themselves. Maybe that cuts both ways

sheepmullet 9y ago

The difference is senior leadership lying through their teeth about valuing diversity of opinion.

GVIrish 9y ago
But surely not all opinions are welcome in the workplace. If someone spread a document that said, 'we shouldn't hire muslims because we can't trust their loyalties', surely expressing that opinion would merit firing. And there's also the question of how opinions are expressed. When you post something publicly for wide distribution, there's much less room to walk things back or to discreetly talk through things. Damore intended for his document to have impact, which it did. But that also means that if the impact is negative it's more likely to lead to his dismissal. I'm not sure he should have been fired in this case but I can see why it was done.
- sheepmullet 9y ago
  > If someone spread a document that said, 'we shouldn't hire muslims because we can't trust their loyalties' That escalated quickly! I think a closer example is someone saying "I support the trump immigration ban". With the far left crowd who have been hyped up by the media this causes the same feelings as saying "I want to ban Muslims" and "I hate Muslims". > And there's also the question of how opinions are expressed. That's true. I'm not suprised he was fired. From reading some of the leaked internal posts it looks like there is significant bullying of conservatives. It doesn't look good for Google. Wage fixing, being investigated for pay gap issues, clearly bully conservatives, etc. Hopefully a court case can reveal the truth.
  - slededit 9y ago
    When you have quotes from key people like Giuliani saying on national TV: “So when [Trump] first announced it, he said, 'Muslim ban.' He called me up. He said, 'Put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally.'" There is strong evidence the immigration ban is targeted at Muslims. If it weren't for quotes like that Trump wouldn't have had an issue with the courts.

Chris2048 9y ago

> When has that ever not been the case in the workplace In progressive companies like google. > There was a time when And it changed because the public became outraged over it, and individuals concerned fought back with social and legal options. Same may happen here too.