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He didn't say it the fault of feminists, only that this was probably going to be the result. And It's exactly why public debate should be had. To come to a bet

He didn't say it the fault of feminists, only that this was probably going to be the result. And It's exactly why public debate should be had. To come to a better solution in the middle, rather than create fringes on the sides. Your reaction here is just more of the 'Shock and Awe' and hurt feelings that doesn't really help push the agenda.

Brockenstein 9y ago
Problem is most of this subject has been in public debate for decades, centuries even. The people trying to maintain the status quo are never going to give it up willingly. They're always going to cry when change comes and they aren't ready for it (IE when they're dead). At some point the debate has to be reasonably over and action expected. And some subjects don't have middle ground. Women being treated less than equal isn't a middle ground sort of issue. There are already sides, there have been sides forever. People being pushed or pulled one way or another isn't a new phenomena. And there's no amount of public debate and middle ground treading you can do to prevent people who are going to be polarized as of the result of any backlash of their already fringe beliefs. That's inevitable. And the gymnastics required to keep them in the middle just aren't worth it. The actual goal is the thing of value for the people pushing for it. Not appeasing ignorance and bigotry just enough to keep them pacified.
- mistermann 9y ago
  > And some subjects don't have middle ground. Women being treated less than equal isn't a middle ground sort of issue. Which is why you need to have ongoing discussion, to determine if people are or are not being treated less equally. People who believe they are "right" but are unable or unwilling to defend that position with words ("the debate is over") should not be trusted, ever.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    > People who believe they are "right" but are unable or unwilling to defend that position with words ("the debate is over") should not be trusted, ever. So what you're saying is the debate is over about the intentions of people saying the debate is over?
    - mistermann 9y ago
      Haha, that's a nice turn of words. Well, assuming you're serious, what's your thoughts on that? Can we have any absolutes? Or is everything indeterminate? If nothing is knowable and communication is not possible shall we stop sending our children to school and go back to living in caves?
_r_o_y_ 9y ago
There can be no discussion when you start with a bad premise. What can you argue with someone that says the other sex is inferior?
- phaed 9y ago
  I can imagine a lot. Ask a feminist in what ways they think women are superior to men, you have conversation for days.
- lawnchair_larry 9y ago
  There can be no discussion when people attack a straw man instead of read the article. Nobody said anyone is inferior, at all.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    That is obviously not at all clear, given the multi-national debate around this issue.
- ManlyBread 9y ago
  How does one knows that the premise is bad when you're not even allowed to disciss it? Furthermore, how come the discussion itself is viewed as harmful? If you claim that the premise is wrong shouldn't it be very easy to prove so? What if the other person is open minded and actually willing to consider your arguments, as long as you're willing to do the same?
KirinDave 9y ago
> He didn't say it the fault of feminists, only that this was probably going to be the result. So what we all should do is forgive these men their outrageously outdated and somewhat dehumanizing viewpoints and calmly explain to them that currently they are benefitting from a system called patriarchy that has normalized male dominance. We should then calmly suggest that btw, people who are not visually and immediately white suffer a lot under this system too. And I know he benefits but could he please stop? These folks already hold radical views. He wasn't "radicalized" by being forced to own it. He isn't forced to "vote Trump" because his views are known. He already had them, and they're for the most part outdated, impropable or insulting already. Why then is the right decision to give him a pass on violating corporate HR policy?
- ramblerman 9y ago
  The irony is that all the things you argue against him for, his small worldview, not willing to come to his senses, are what you are doing yourself. You are kicking and screaming against anything that upsets your viewpoint on this issue. And we actually agree on the most important facet (as do most people) that any discrimination based on age, gender, or race is absolutely not tolerated. But how to achieve this in the real world is not a walk in the park. For example, positive discrimination is not a fair system in my opinion. I would think focusing on making the interview process blind is better. So can we argue on these specifics or am I just a bully and a bigot for holding a different opinion?
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    > You are kicking and screaming against anything that upsets your viewpoint on this issue. Interesting. So in this case I shouldn't debate anyone here. Because somehow that makes me wrong because... By not agreeing my worldview is small? > that any discrimination based on age, gender, or race is absolutely not tolerated. Honestly, I genuinely do not believe that many people here believe this. I think they find excuses for men at every turn or rationalize marginalizing women need (e.g., as I write this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980201) That is part of _my_ larger point about how the natural response on HN is to say, "Well if you had handled this correctly we wouldn't be in a situation where it looks like sexual harassment." > So can we argue on these specifics or am I just a bully and a bigot for holding a different opinion? I want you to re-read this paragraph and ask yourself what the premise here is. This thread starts by saying, "We should debate." I point out how dismissive this often I'd on HN and your response is, "You're kicking and screaming and just as guilty as James. Now, agree with me in total OR call me names." I don't know if you're a bigot, but this is a poor tactic to adopt when coupled with the ultimatum: "Or am I a bully?"

Brockenstein 9y ago

Problem is most of this subject has been in public debate for decades, centuries even. The people trying to maintain the status quo are never going to give it up willingly. They're always going to cry when change comes and they aren't ready for it (IE when they're dead). At some point the debate has to be reasonably over and action expected. And some subjects don't have middle ground. Women being treated less than equal isn't a middle ground sort of issue. There are already sides, there have been sides forever. People being pushed or pulled one way or another isn't a new phenomena. And there's no amount of public debate and middle ground treading you can do to prevent people who are going to be polarized as of the result of any backlash of their already fringe beliefs. That's inevitable. And the gymnastics required to keep them in the middle just aren't worth it. The actual goal is the thing of value for the people pushing for it. Not appeasing ignorance and bigotry just enough to keep them pacified.

mistermann 9y ago
> And some subjects don't have middle ground. Women being treated less than equal isn't a middle ground sort of issue. Which is why you need to have ongoing discussion, to determine if people are or are not being treated less equally. People who believe they are "right" but are unable or unwilling to defend that position with words ("the debate is over") should not be trusted, ever.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > People who believe they are "right" but are unable or unwilling to defend that position with words ("the debate is over") should not be trusted, ever. So what you're saying is the debate is over about the intentions of people saying the debate is over?
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Haha, that's a nice turn of words. Well, assuming you're serious, what's your thoughts on that? Can we have any absolutes? Or is everything indeterminate? If nothing is knowable and communication is not possible shall we stop sending our children to school and go back to living in caves?

_r_o_y_ 9y ago

There can be no discussion when you start with a bad premise. What can you argue with someone that says the other sex is inferior?

phaed 9y ago
I can imagine a lot. Ask a feminist in what ways they think women are superior to men, you have conversation for days.
lawnchair_larry 9y ago
There can be no discussion when people attack a straw man instead of read the article. Nobody said anyone is inferior, at all.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  That is obviously not at all clear, given the multi-national debate around this issue.
ManlyBread 9y ago
How does one knows that the premise is bad when you're not even allowed to disciss it? Furthermore, how come the discussion itself is viewed as harmful? If you claim that the premise is wrong shouldn't it be very easy to prove so? What if the other person is open minded and actually willing to consider your arguments, as long as you're willing to do the same?

KirinDave 9y ago

> He didn't say it the fault of feminists, only that this was probably going to be the result. So what we all should do is forgive these men their outrageously outdated and somewhat dehumanizing viewpoints and calmly explain to them that currently they are benefitting from a system called patriarchy that has normalized male dominance. We should then calmly suggest that btw, people who are not visually and immediately white suffer a lot under this system too. And I know he benefits but could he please stop? These folks already hold radical views. He wasn't "radicalized" by being forced to own it. He isn't forced to "vote Trump" because his views are known. He already had them, and they're for the most part outdated, impropable or insulting already. Why then is the right decision to give him a pass on violating corporate HR policy?

ramblerman 9y ago
The irony is that all the things you argue against him for, his small worldview, not willing to come to his senses, are what you are doing yourself. You are kicking and screaming against anything that upsets your viewpoint on this issue. And we actually agree on the most important facet (as do most people) that any discrimination based on age, gender, or race is absolutely not tolerated. But how to achieve this in the real world is not a walk in the park. For example, positive discrimination is not a fair system in my opinion. I would think focusing on making the interview process blind is better. So can we argue on these specifics or am I just a bully and a bigot for holding a different opinion?
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > You are kicking and screaming against anything that upsets your viewpoint on this issue. Interesting. So in this case I shouldn't debate anyone here. Because somehow that makes me wrong because... By not agreeing my worldview is small? > that any discrimination based on age, gender, or race is absolutely not tolerated. Honestly, I genuinely do not believe that many people here believe this. I think they find excuses for men at every turn or rationalize marginalizing women need (e.g., as I write this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980201) That is part of _my_ larger point about how the natural response on HN is to say, "Well if you had handled this correctly we wouldn't be in a situation where it looks like sexual harassment." > So can we argue on these specifics or am I just a bully and a bigot for holding a different opinion? I want you to re-read this paragraph and ask yourself what the premise here is. This thread starts by saying, "We should debate." I point out how dismissive this often I'd on HN and your response is, "You're kicking and screaming and just as guilty as James. Now, agree with me in total OR call me names." I don't know if you're a bigot, but this is a poor tactic to adopt when coupled with the ultimatum: "Or am I a bully?"