3 ms·

This seems overly broad. many societies aren't even a millennia old and derive from events that would indicate some quantity of disdain for their previous gover

This seems overly broad. many societies aren't even a millennia old and derive from events that would indicate some quantity of disdain for their previous governors. Unless the argument is that people, regardless of culture, are behaviorally the same then there isn't much to gain by simply going by such a large time frame.

mirimir 9y ago
OK, what societies have been fundamentally gender neutral?
- PeanutCurry 9y ago
  I'm not seeing the relevance of your rhetorical question here. My point was that it's weird to measure institutional discrimination over millennia since most institutions that matter in the modern era aren't that old. So you're either mashing multiple institutions together and ignoring their cultural differences or the premise needs to be refined more.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    Well, "institutional" isn't limited to a particular institution. Here, it's extremely pervasive, reflected in virtually all institutions of virtually all known cultures, going back millennia. Based on archeological evidence, it's possible that gender roles and constraints were weaker maybe 20-30 kyr ago.
    - PeanutCurry 9y ago
      But that definition isn't particularly helpful unless I'm missing something you're getting at. Sure, a lot of ancient societies had men as hunters and women/meak as gatherers. None of the major world powers are hunter/gatherer societies though. And similar statements could be made about medieval homestead configurations. This is why I was pointing out that most modern institutions aren't a millennia old. Sure, thousands of years ago there were sexist policies, just like there are today. But if those policies were based on ideologies and environments that don't exist anymore then it doesn't seem like that's a particularly useful acknowledgement for correcting inequality as it exists today.
      - mirimir 9y ago
        Cultures come and go, but sexism seems to stay the same. It could be biological. I suspect that it's mainly a game theoretical implication of the biology of human sexual reproduction. It's all about whether men want to know which kids are theirs, or not. And if they do, what systems get set up to make that possible. So there are two attractors aka stable states. One is what's typical historically: Men dominate women, manage access of other men to them, and so on. The other is where men don't care about knowing paternity. So women don't need to be controlled so much. Maybe some form of polyandry. Or maybe just less emphasis on family vs larger social group.
        PeanutCurry 9y ago
        But those cultures come and go alongside there systems. And those systems that come and go each had unique points of equality and inequality. Just because modern American/European society produces sexist outcomes doesn't mean that the legal systems which govern those societies are fundamentally sexist in the way that ancient Rome could be considered sexist for example. I realize there's a certain amount of pedantry in my rebuttal but, at the same time, your argument reads to me like you feel as though equality hasn't progressed at all since in ancient times. Of course it hasn't progressed at all since ancient times if you're using such a broad, bordering on boolean, definition of sexist.

mirimir 9y ago

OK, what societies have been fundamentally gender neutral?

PeanutCurry 9y ago
I'm not seeing the relevance of your rhetorical question here. My point was that it's weird to measure institutional discrimination over millennia since most institutions that matter in the modern era aren't that old. So you're either mashing multiple institutions together and ignoring their cultural differences or the premise needs to be refined more.
- mirimir 9y ago
  Well, "institutional" isn't limited to a particular institution. Here, it's extremely pervasive, reflected in virtually all institutions of virtually all known cultures, going back millennia. Based on archeological evidence, it's possible that gender roles and constraints were weaker maybe 20-30 kyr ago.
  - PeanutCurry 9y ago
    But that definition isn't particularly helpful unless I'm missing something you're getting at. Sure, a lot of ancient societies had men as hunters and women/meak as gatherers. None of the major world powers are hunter/gatherer societies though. And similar statements could be made about medieval homestead configurations. This is why I was pointing out that most modern institutions aren't a millennia old. Sure, thousands of years ago there were sexist policies, just like there are today. But if those policies were based on ideologies and environments that don't exist anymore then it doesn't seem like that's a particularly useful acknowledgement for correcting inequality as it exists today.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      Cultures come and go, but sexism seems to stay the same. It could be biological. I suspect that it's mainly a game theoretical implication of the biology of human sexual reproduction. It's all about whether men want to know which kids are theirs, or not. And if they do, what systems get set up to make that possible. So there are two attractors aka stable states. One is what's typical historically: Men dominate women, manage access of other men to them, and so on. The other is where men don't care about knowing paternity. So women don't need to be controlled so much. Maybe some form of polyandry. Or maybe just less emphasis on family vs larger social group.
      - PeanutCurry 9y ago
        But those cultures come and go alongside there systems. And those systems that come and go each had unique points of equality and inequality. Just because modern American/European society produces sexist outcomes doesn't mean that the legal systems which govern those societies are fundamentally sexist in the way that ancient Rome could be considered sexist for example. I realize there's a certain amount of pedantry in my rebuttal but, at the same time, your argument reads to me like you feel as though equality hasn't progressed at all since in ancient times. Of course it hasn't progressed at all since ancient times if you're using such a broad, bordering on boolean, definition of sexist.