4 ms·

Why? What positive connotation could be drawn from it?

by KirinDave 9y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
yorwba 9y ago
Women are better at pair programming?
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Evidence, please.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    > He says women will benefit from making coding more social. Pair programming. > What positive connotation could be drawn from it? I'm not claiming that women are better at pair programming, but that is a positive connotation that can be drawn.
therebedragons 9y ago
> What positive connotation could be drawn from it? IMHO that is the wrong question. Connotations aren't something anyone can argue for or against - one can have bad connotations for all sorts of words. Actual example: my ex hated the word "negotiate" in any personal discussion as she saw negotiations as something where you tried to screw the other person over (she was a lawyer). This was to the point where she refused to negotiate anything - including where we would have dinner. How can anyone live without negotiating? Hence, ex :) I think a better question than one about connotations would be: If we accept that women have a preference for people over things, what would encourage women to want to do a "things" job? The memo's answer: more peer programming i.e. adding a people element to a things/systems job. That is internally consistent, I think, with the evidence presented on average female preference. Honestly, I find all this inferior/superior talk really troubling. Different != inferior, or superior, it is just DIFFERENT. Is a hammer a better tool than a saw? Depends what I want to do... I find it even more troubling that people against labelling others superior/inferior see everything that way. Personally, I think vive la difference!
- TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
  The "different = inferior argument" is strongly implied. If you accept the premise that there's such a thing as a male-dominated work culture with stereotypically male values, then attitudes and actions that match those values are considered better ("normative") by default. Anyone who has different requirements or interests will always be considered an outsider who will to have allowances made for them while receiving special treatment. This would also be true of hypothetical female-dominated cultures with stereotypical female values where men would be considered the inferior outsiders who need special treatment. (Do such cultures exist? At work - sometimes, but not often. Outside of work - perhaps.) The topic is an unholy mess because there are so many implications and assumptions on both sides, and so much outright ranting and bullying too, that useful debate is practically impossible. My view is that corporate culture isn't stereotypically "male" so much as stereotypically totalitarian. More women won't change that. It might rein in some of the more obvious abuses, while running the risk of replacing them with some new ones. But real economic and political freedom could only come from equal opportunity at a scale that most (tacitly neoliberal) feminists seem uninterested in.
  - sheepmullet 9y ago
    > The "different = inferior argument" is strongly implied. Is it? For the average person working at a big company it is much more important to have a good fun team than a productive team. After all a fun happy team benefits me on a day to day level whereas if company profit jumps 20% I'm unlikely to see any benefit. The exceptions are a few tech giants who hand out lots of stock.
    - xapata 9y ago
      > Is it? Yes. In the memo, at least.
      - throwanem 9y ago
        Where? How? In what words?
aaronblohowiak 9y ago
the context of that suggestion was to make the activity more appealing in order to entice more candidates, not to compensate for a skill deficiency. My interpretation of this point should not be taken as an endorsement of it or the document as a whole
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > My interpretation of this point should not be taken as an endorsement of it or the document as a whole I was hoping not to discuss the document as a whole myself. I largely avoided the last pseudoscientific cesspool of a thread.
lsaferite 9y ago
You: Suggesting pair programming is an insult because you think I'm less capable. Author: Pair programming may be one possible way to bring more social women into programming by appealing to their interest in people vs. things He wrote one thing, your read another. Who's the one with a problem here exactly? The author or the reader?

Why? What positive connotation could be drawn from it?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

yorwba 9y ago

Women are better at pair programming?

KirinDave 9y ago
Evidence, please.
- yorwba 9y ago
  > He says women will benefit from making coding more social. Pair programming. > What positive connotation could be drawn from it? I'm not claiming that women are better at pair programming, but that is a positive connotation that can be drawn.

therebedragons 9y ago

> What positive connotation could be drawn from it? IMHO that is the wrong question. Connotations aren't something anyone can argue for or against - one can have bad connotations for all sorts of words. Actual example: my ex hated the word "negotiate" in any personal discussion as she saw negotiations as something where you tried to screw the other person over (she was a lawyer). This was to the point where she refused to negotiate anything - including where we would have dinner. How can anyone live without negotiating? Hence, ex :) I think a better question than one about connotations would be: If we accept that women have a preference for people over things, what would encourage women to want to do a "things" job? The memo's answer: more peer programming i.e. adding a people element to a things/systems job. That is internally consistent, I think, with the evidence presented on average female preference. Honestly, I find all this inferior/superior talk really troubling. Different != inferior, or superior, it is just DIFFERENT. Is a hammer a better tool than a saw? Depends what I want to do... I find it even more troubling that people against labelling others superior/inferior see everything that way. Personally, I think vive la difference!

TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
The "different = inferior argument" is strongly implied. If you accept the premise that there's such a thing as a male-dominated work culture with stereotypically male values, then attitudes and actions that match those values are considered better ("normative") by default. Anyone who has different requirements or interests will always be considered an outsider who will to have allowances made for them while receiving special treatment. This would also be true of hypothetical female-dominated cultures with stereotypical female values where men would be considered the inferior outsiders who need special treatment. (Do such cultures exist? At work - sometimes, but not often. Outside of work - perhaps.) The topic is an unholy mess because there are so many implications and assumptions on both sides, and so much outright ranting and bullying too, that useful debate is practically impossible. My view is that corporate culture isn't stereotypically "male" so much as stereotypically totalitarian. More women won't change that. It might rein in some of the more obvious abuses, while running the risk of replacing them with some new ones. But real economic and political freedom could only come from equal opportunity at a scale that most (tacitly neoliberal) feminists seem uninterested in.
- sheepmullet 9y ago
  > The "different = inferior argument" is strongly implied. Is it? For the average person working at a big company it is much more important to have a good fun team than a productive team. After all a fun happy team benefits me on a day to day level whereas if company profit jumps 20% I'm unlikely to see any benefit. The exceptions are a few tech giants who hand out lots of stock.
  - xapata 9y ago
    > Is it? Yes. In the memo, at least.
    - throwanem 9y ago
      Where? How? In what words?

aaronblohowiak 9y ago

the context of that suggestion was to make the activity more appealing in order to entice more candidates, not to compensate for a skill deficiency. My interpretation of this point should not be taken as an endorsement of it or the document as a whole

KirinDave 9y ago
> My interpretation of this point should not be taken as an endorsement of it or the document as a whole I was hoping not to discuss the document as a whole myself. I largely avoided the last pseudoscientific cesspool of a thread.

lsaferite 9y ago

You: Suggesting pair programming is an insult because you think I'm less capable. Author: Pair programming may be one possible way to bring more social women into programming by appealing to their interest in people vs. things He wrote one thing, your read another. Who's the one with a problem here exactly? The author or the reader?