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Or maybe the properties I mentioned are real, and aided by the fact that people like working with similar people. The tech workforce is expanding, so the larges

Or maybe the properties I mentioned are real, and aided by the fact that people like working with similar people. The tech workforce is expanding, so the largest groups of similar people are younger, and there is a positive feedback effect. > They have blind spots, customs, narrow minded people in key positions, etc. There is some level of age discrimination in the valley, but I think most larger firms try to professionalize their HR to avoid that. No firm is perfect, but the interesting here is the statistically significant tendency to display this exact property (youth) across many companies. Perhaps it is not statistically significant when accounting for the size of young vs old workforces, but I doubt it. This kind of statistically significant thing doesn't just happen and succeed on a huge scale unless there's something to it, so I speculated some potential reasons. I think it's a cop out to just say "everybody prefers young people and that's that."

rsj_hn 9y ago
In any expanding field, you will have more younger workers than older workers, because when the older workers were younger, there were fewer jobs in that field and so more went into other fields. That, combined with people having biases to be around those like them is an argument for age discrimination rather than against it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- nomel 9y ago
  I’ve always noticed a very sharp age divide in computer know-how. My age group grew up with computers. They were cheap enough they were most everybody had one, including internet access. Just 10 years before, they weren’t remotely common place, and the internet was in its infancy. The way that the two side use the computers and think about computing is hugely different. Not surprisingly, this is the age group of this lawsuit. My generation and younger was mostly or quite literally born into it. It’s a real advantage, even with equivalent qualifications.
  - rsj_hn 9y ago
    Well, your age group used the internet, but people now in their 40s and 50s built the internet. I would say the difference is more in areas of expertise: I've noticed that older programmers tend to work more on system code -- operating systems, databases, routers, networking stacks, real time applications, etc. Stuff that's just a magic black box for most younger programmers, who focus on web applications and concentrate in javascript. The C/javascript divides separates older/younger programmers quite clearly, although of course many older programmers work in javascript and many younger programmers work in C. Now with WASM, things may be turning full circle, and then next generation will have grown up with Assembly! But most older programmers also had access to computers -- they just weren't on the internet, they had to type their programs in from magazines (as hobbyists) or load them from magnetic tapes shipped from Berkeley :)
Joe-Z 9y ago
If you'd apply this exact reasoning to gender (Or sex? I don't know what's the correct term here, sorry), you'd get downvoted into oblivion. Maybe younger people (or men, to further my point) are inherently better suited to do software engineering. Or maybe the way the whole system is set up just optimizes for young males to succeed, while others, objectively just as qualified, can't compete.
- rsj_hn 9y ago
  The thing is, should CS ever become a shrinking field, it will suddenly be skewed by older people because of the same dynamic, and then all these natural talent arguments will go out the window. This is primarily a queueing problem for the industry as a whole. In the U.S., the median worker age is about 43, but the median age of software developers is 40, or 3 years younger than average. (https://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm) I really think this 3 year discrepancy is because of the queueing dynamics. Now, in silicon valley, it's a bit of a different story -- maybe. But a lot of silicon valley developers live a bubble and are shocked to discover that 1) Almost all programmers in the U.S. live outside the valley, and 2) The median programmer age is not 29. So then you have to ask yourself what is it about the valley that makes it skew younger. Then you look and see that it's not the entire valley that skews younger, but companies like Google skew much younger than firms like Oracle or HP. One might almost say that these companies have a younger "culture". Now all of a sudden, the natural abilities argument start to seem weaker. Now, for gender, if the national skew of women/men software developers was 50/50, but at google it was 80/20, I'd be asking questions about what is going on with google. But Google has a similar skew to the national average. Therefore talking about large group differences is at least plausible. So once the median age at google for developers is more in line with the median age of developers at other companies -- e.g. closer to 40 -- then we can start discussing whether the difference between 40 and 43 (median age of all workers vs. programmers) is due to group differences (which I don't believe) or just queueing effects. Again, I don't want to say that Google is intentionally discriminating. Maybe developers stay in the same company, so older companies have older developers and younger companies have younger developers. I think there is some truth to that. There are many possible reasons. But whatever reason you give, the national median age of software engineers is a full 10 years older than the median age of software engineers at Google, and that's something that bears looking into.

rsj_hn 9y ago

In any expanding field, you will have more younger workers than older workers, because when the older workers were younger, there were fewer jobs in that field and so more went into other fields. That, combined with people having biases to be around those like them is an argument for age discrimination rather than against it.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
nomel 9y ago
I’ve always noticed a very sharp age divide in computer know-how. My age group grew up with computers. They were cheap enough they were most everybody had one, including internet access. Just 10 years before, they weren’t remotely common place, and the internet was in its infancy. The way that the two side use the computers and think about computing is hugely different. Not surprisingly, this is the age group of this lawsuit. My generation and younger was mostly or quite literally born into it. It’s a real advantage, even with equivalent qualifications.
- rsj_hn 9y ago
  Well, your age group used the internet, but people now in their 40s and 50s built the internet. I would say the difference is more in areas of expertise: I've noticed that older programmers tend to work more on system code -- operating systems, databases, routers, networking stacks, real time applications, etc. Stuff that's just a magic black box for most younger programmers, who focus on web applications and concentrate in javascript. The C/javascript divides separates older/younger programmers quite clearly, although of course many older programmers work in javascript and many younger programmers work in C. Now with WASM, things may be turning full circle, and then next generation will have grown up with Assembly! But most older programmers also had access to computers -- they just weren't on the internet, they had to type their programs in from magazines (as hobbyists) or load them from magnetic tapes shipped from Berkeley :)

Joe-Z 9y ago

If you'd apply this exact reasoning to gender (Or sex? I don't know what's the correct term here, sorry), you'd get downvoted into oblivion. Maybe younger people (or men, to further my point) are inherently better suited to do software engineering. Or maybe the way the whole system is set up just optimizes for young males to succeed, while others, objectively just as qualified, can't compete.

rsj_hn 9y ago
The thing is, should CS ever become a shrinking field, it will suddenly be skewed by older people because of the same dynamic, and then all these natural talent arguments will go out the window. This is primarily a queueing problem for the industry as a whole. In the U.S., the median worker age is about 43, but the median age of software developers is 40, or 3 years younger than average. (https://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm) I really think this 3 year discrepancy is because of the queueing dynamics. Now, in silicon valley, it's a bit of a different story -- maybe. But a lot of silicon valley developers live a bubble and are shocked to discover that 1) Almost all programmers in the U.S. live outside the valley, and 2) The median programmer age is not 29. So then you have to ask yourself what is it about the valley that makes it skew younger. Then you look and see that it's not the entire valley that skews younger, but companies like Google skew much younger than firms like Oracle or HP. One might almost say that these companies have a younger "culture". Now all of a sudden, the natural abilities argument start to seem weaker. Now, for gender, if the national skew of women/men software developers was 50/50, but at google it was 80/20, I'd be asking questions about what is going on with google. But Google has a similar skew to the national average. Therefore talking about large group differences is at least plausible. So once the median age at google for developers is more in line with the median age of developers at other companies -- e.g. closer to 40 -- then we can start discussing whether the difference between 40 and 43 (median age of all workers vs. programmers) is due to group differences (which I don't believe) or just queueing effects. Again, I don't want to say that Google is intentionally discriminating. Maybe developers stay in the same company, so older companies have older developers and younger companies have younger developers. I think there is some truth to that. There are many possible reasons. But whatever reason you give, the national median age of software engineers is a full 10 years older than the median age of software engineers at Google, and that's something that bears looking into.