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This article makes a number of flawed assumptions: - It neglects the environmental impact of battery production. - Diesel motors can be significantly l

This article makes a number of flawed assumptions: - It neglects the environmental impact of battery production. - Diesel motors can be significantly less expensive to maintain and operate, even more so as the reliability of emissions-reducing technology is improved. - Battery charging is nowhere near as fast or convenient as a gas station. - Electricity must come from somewhere. Few places have steady wind and none have 24-hour solar energy. The world will switch to electric vehicles when they offer sufficient cost-savings, convenience, and appeal. Until we solve all of those things (and not with massive government subsidies), they will continue to play second-fiddle to gas- and diesel-powered vehicles.

DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
1. Battery production, like any production, has an environmental impact - but the motivation for battery-electric vehicles is to eliminate local environmental impact (e.g. urban centres). If all of the pollution happens at a single source then it's easier to contain, reduce, and eventually eliminate. 2. Diesel fuels are still very dirty - and the reliability of petrol engines is not a big-enough problem to justify switching to diesel engines - and ICE cars have far more moving parts compared to BEVs than just the engine. 3. Tesla did look into fast battery-swap stations that can swap a battery in less time than it takes to fill a gas tank - they stopped further development due to a lack of consumer interest: users are perfectly happy to charge at home overnight, when the car's aren't being driven anyway, and when electricity is often cheaper at night. As more use-cases switch to electric there will be an impetus to adopt battery-swapping, but it remains an option. 4. 24-hour solar is possible with energy-storage, which is what Tesla is looking into, but again, the point of BEVs is to first eliminate local pollution, then make it easier to eliminate energy source pollution thanks to the fungibility of electricity and centralisation of pollution sources.
- sverige 9y ago
  You skipped the part about massive government subsidies.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Pinga 9y ago
    here you go: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X16304867 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X16...
    - sverige 9y ago
      It's hard to take the article seriously since global warming accounts for 22% of the subsidies. Where did that number come from? How could it even be known? Meanwhile, Elon Musk's subsidies are well-documented and specific.
vvanders 9y ago
> Diesel motors can be significantly less expensive to maintain and operate, even more so as the reliability of emissions-reducing technology is improved. Source? As someone who owns two diesels(1.1L 2cyl and 3.0L 6cyl) and an EV the oil changes alone make your argument invalid. You know what my highest per-mile operating cost is(including electricity)? Tires. Look, I love the simplicity of the diesel as much as anyone else but EVs have a very strong position on operation costs.
- chrissnell 9y ago
  When were your diesels built? The new (last five years or so) engines are amazing--they've really come a long way with the emissions systems. I own two diesels: a 1987 Land Rover Defender 110 with a 300Tdi (no emissions controls, ridiculously smokey) and a 2017 Ram 2500 with the 6.7L Cummins turbo diesel (cleaner than I'd ever imagined).
  - vvanders 9y ago
    I think you may have mis-read my reply. I was talking about operating costs, not emissions. The 3.0L ecodiesel was built last year and yeah, it's much cleaner than our '81 1.2L which is pre-emissions. The thing is the new engine is full synthetic(only approved oil) so combined with the ~$30 Wix filter an oil change runs ~$110 every 4k. The only maintenance item on our EV was a coolant change at 50k, something you'd have to do on a diesel as well.
    - chrissnell 9y ago
      That's a different story than my Cummins, which gets an oil change every 15K miles and uses regular 15W40 dino oil. Other than fuel[1], I've only spent about $115 in the first year of ownership and only because I took it to the dealer for an oil change instead of doing it in my garage like I do my other diesel truck. [1] 15-17mpg...not bad for a 10,500 pound truck
      - vvanders 9y ago
blkhawk 9y ago
- I did the math on the battery issue that based on some figures I had for energy cost of battery production including mining of resources. I went with a figure of around 110mj of energy per 1kwh of battery. The result was an estimated ~24k km break even point when comparing a model S to a similar sized Volvo. The battery energy costs go down by about half if they are produced only using renewables. - Actually all the emission reducing technologies adds complexity and lowers the efficiency. This increases cost. - gas stations will be less convenient when there is no gas. otherwise a great argument for fossil powered cars. - that is why we have batteries.
jonahrd 9y ago
1 This article isn't talking about the environmental impact of electric cars, its talking about the collapse of the oil industry. 4 Yet again, electricity is never made from oil. The fact that it takes effort to generate electricity doesn't take away from the articles main point that the oil industry will collapse.

DaiPlusPlus 9y ago

1. Battery production, like any production, has an environmental impact - but the motivation for battery-electric vehicles is to eliminate local environmental impact (e.g. urban centres). If all of the pollution happens at a single source then it's easier to contain, reduce, and eventually eliminate. 2. Diesel fuels are still very dirty - and the reliability of petrol engines is not a big-enough problem to justify switching to diesel engines - and ICE cars have far more moving parts compared to BEVs than just the engine. 3. Tesla did look into fast battery-swap stations that can swap a battery in less time than it takes to fill a gas tank - they stopped further development due to a lack of consumer interest: users are perfectly happy to charge at home overnight, when the car's aren't being driven anyway, and when electricity is often cheaper at night. As more use-cases switch to electric there will be an impetus to adopt battery-swapping, but it remains an option. 4. 24-hour solar is possible with energy-storage, which is what Tesla is looking into, but again, the point of BEVs is to first eliminate local pollution, then make it easier to eliminate energy source pollution thanks to the fungibility of electricity and centralisation of pollution sources.

sverige 9y ago
You skipped the part about massive government subsidies.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Pinga 9y ago
  here you go: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X16304867 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X16...
  - sverige 9y ago
    It's hard to take the article seriously since global warming accounts for 22% of the subsidies. Where did that number come from? How could it even be known? Meanwhile, Elon Musk's subsidies are well-documented and specific.

vvanders 9y ago

> Diesel motors can be significantly less expensive to maintain and operate, even more so as the reliability of emissions-reducing technology is improved. Source? As someone who owns two diesels(1.1L 2cyl and 3.0L 6cyl) and an EV the oil changes alone make your argument invalid. You know what my highest per-mile operating cost is(including electricity)? Tires. Look, I love the simplicity of the diesel as much as anyone else but EVs have a very strong position on operation costs.

chrissnell 9y ago
When were your diesels built? The new (last five years or so) engines are amazing--they've really come a long way with the emissions systems. I own two diesels: a 1987 Land Rover Defender 110 with a 300Tdi (no emissions controls, ridiculously smokey) and a 2017 Ram 2500 with the 6.7L Cummins turbo diesel (cleaner than I'd ever imagined).
- vvanders 9y ago
  I think you may have mis-read my reply. I was talking about operating costs, not emissions. The 3.0L ecodiesel was built last year and yeah, it's much cleaner than our '81 1.2L which is pre-emissions. The thing is the new engine is full synthetic(only approved oil) so combined with the ~$30 Wix filter an oil change runs ~$110 every 4k. The only maintenance item on our EV was a coolant change at 50k, something you'd have to do on a diesel as well.
  - chrissnell 9y ago
    That's a different story than my Cummins, which gets an oil change every 15K miles and uses regular 15W40 dino oil. Other than fuel[1], I've only spent about $115 in the first year of ownership and only because I took it to the dealer for an oil change instead of doing it in my garage like I do my other diesel truck. [1] 15-17mpg...not bad for a 10,500 pound truck
    - vvanders 9y ago

blkhawk 9y ago

- I did the math on the battery issue that based on some figures I had for energy cost of battery production including mining of resources. I went with a figure of around 110mj of energy per 1kwh of battery. The result was an estimated ~24k km break even point when comparing a model S to a similar sized Volvo. The battery energy costs go down by about half if they are produced only using renewables. - Actually all the emission reducing technologies adds complexity and lowers the efficiency. This increases cost. - gas stations will be less convenient when there is no gas. otherwise a great argument for fossil powered cars. - that is why we have batteries.

jonahrd 9y ago

1 This article isn't talking about the environmental impact of electric cars, its talking about the collapse of the oil industry. 4 Yet again, electricity is never made from oil. The fact that it takes effort to generate electricity doesn't take away from the articles main point that the oil industry will collapse.