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Seriously. Linux will likely outlive GH[1], and more importantly, it doesn't need GH. The current workflow works fine, and I hardly think any potential kernel h

by __jal 9y ago

Seriously. Linux will likely outlive GH[1], and more importantly, it doesn't need GH. The current workflow works fine, and I hardly think any potential kernel hackers are choosing not to work on the kernel because it is email-driven. [1] Nothing against them that I don't have with any other commons that depends on corporate beneficence. But companies fail all the time; I can't think of a reason GH is immune.

shp0ngle 9y ago
It's not like open source projects are immortal. Some die due to poor management, lost developer interest, lost funding, or some fork becoming more popular. Or all of the above.
- KekDemaga 9y ago
  For me Linux is the core of the open source movement. If it dies the rest of it might die with it.
  - cosinetau 9y ago
    Wow. That's bleak. Linux will not last forever, irrespective of how it might change. Change is gonna come someday. Don't get left behind because of sentiment. This isn't a judgment on the Linux project, this is reality.
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      Linux will likely outlive all of us. Network effects are massively strong for operating systems, we've been stuck with the same basic 3 for decades and that's likely to stay the same.
      - mrep 9y ago
        Only if you consider servers. Mobile operating systems such as IOS have become huge and they're many new industries that look promising (my guess is IOT based one like alexa and Google home but who knows).
        gnaritas 9y ago
        There are two major mobile operating systems, iOS and Android, both based on Unix clones, one on BSD and one on Linux. Mobile has dramatically increased Linux usage; what do you think Android is?
        mrep 9y ago
        You bring up valid points. However, ios makes most of the mobile profit just as windows and Mac do over Linux for desktop (I have only used Linux in server industry so I don't know how they fair in those markets too much). In that light, How about this prediction. Linux will continue to dominate in the server market for a long time as businesses factor in the cost of os licenses and the supply of linux users is big. Consumer markets like desktop, mobile, whatevers next will flock to the lower personal cost (through customer time investment in learning the os).
        gnaritas 9y ago
        Agree, thus Linux will live a long time.
  - nickbauman 9y ago
    If Linux dies, it will either be because something better emerged to replace it (yay!) or the civilization necessary to support it imploded (boo!)
  - shp0ngle 9y ago
    Well, it might happen that Google will fork Linux into their own thing, and it will be harder better faster stronger, and for some reason hard to merge back into Linux. And the ecosystem will move. It's hard to imagine now, but it can happen. Or it will be GNU Hurd.
    - kronos29296 9y ago
      (Ir)relevant xkcd. https://xkcd.com/1508/ https://xkcd.com/1508/
thethirdone 9y ago
> The current workflow works fine, and I hardly think any potential kernel hackers are choosing not to work on the kernel because it is email-driven. I'm not so sure. If the kernel development was on Github, I may have looked into contributing, but as it stands, its not worth the trouble to try to contribute (as I don't have anything specific to help with). And, I suspect there are more capable developers who are closer to the edge than me. Anyway, having a slightly lower bar to get started may not get more developers involved, but instead my get them involved more quickly.
- chubot 9y ago
  Linux is one of the few open source projects to with plenty of developers. They don't need or even want your help, especially if your attitude toward tools is rigid, and if you have nothing concrete to contribute. Linus has said this a few times -- in general they don't actively try to onboard new contributors.
  - pmoriarty 9y ago
    "They don't need or even want your help" There was in fact a talk given by Greg Kroah-Hartman, one Linux's lead maintainers, about development for the Linux kernel which he titled "I Don't Want Your Code". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMeH7wqOwXA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMeH7wqOwXA
    - chubot 9y ago
      Haha, thanks for the video. I watched it, and I was surprised to see that it's about a specific company. He's at Linaro, specfically taking their developers to task for sending bad patches. And they indeed sound horrible, but he's good natured about it. I'm just starting to accept patches for my project, and honestly I'm flabberghasted that people will send patches that not only don't run, but don't build. And Greg was saying the same thing. I guess I got spoiled at my last job, where people generally sent high quality patches / code reviews. Although toward the end, I noticed some sloppiness. It wasn't the main reason I left the company, but it started to feel like the downfall... I don't want to work with people who don't know how to submit code reviews / patches.
retox 9y ago
I wonder if the email list acts as a gateway to filter potential troublemakers and trolls. A troll denied their audience is a troll defeated.
- ajdlinux 9y ago
  The kernel lists get plenty of trolls regardless.

by __jal 9y ago

shp0ngle 9y ago

It's not like open source projects are immortal. Some die due to poor management, lost developer interest, lost funding, or some fork becoming more popular. Or all of the above.

KekDemaga 9y ago
For me Linux is the core of the open source movement. If it dies the rest of it might die with it.
- cosinetau 9y ago
  Wow. That's bleak. Linux will not last forever, irrespective of how it might change. Change is gonna come someday. Don't get left behind because of sentiment. This isn't a judgment on the Linux project, this is reality.
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    Linux will likely outlive all of us. Network effects are massively strong for operating systems, we've been stuck with the same basic 3 for decades and that's likely to stay the same.
    - mrep 9y ago
      Only if you consider servers. Mobile operating systems such as IOS have become huge and they're many new industries that look promising (my guess is IOT based one like alexa and Google home but who knows).
      - gnaritas 9y ago
        There are two major mobile operating systems, iOS and Android, both based on Unix clones, one on BSD and one on Linux. Mobile has dramatically increased Linux usage; what do you think Android is?
        mrep 9y ago
        You bring up valid points. However, ios makes most of the mobile profit just as windows and Mac do over Linux for desktop (I have only used Linux in server industry so I don't know how they fair in those markets too much). In that light, How about this prediction. Linux will continue to dominate in the server market for a long time as businesses factor in the cost of os licenses and the supply of linux users is big. Consumer markets like desktop, mobile, whatevers next will flock to the lower personal cost (through customer time investment in learning the os).
        gnaritas 9y ago
        Agree, thus Linux will live a long time.
- nickbauman 9y ago
  If Linux dies, it will either be because something better emerged to replace it (yay!) or the civilization necessary to support it imploded (boo!)
- shp0ngle 9y ago
  Well, it might happen that Google will fork Linux into their own thing, and it will be harder better faster stronger, and for some reason hard to merge back into Linux. And the ecosystem will move. It's hard to imagine now, but it can happen. Or it will be GNU Hurd.
  - kronos29296 9y ago
    (Ir)relevant xkcd. https://xkcd.com/1508/ https://xkcd.com/1508/

thethirdone 9y ago

> The current workflow works fine, and I hardly think any potential kernel hackers are choosing not to work on the kernel because it is email-driven. I'm not so sure. If the kernel development was on Github, I may have looked into contributing, but as it stands, its not worth the trouble to try to contribute (as I don't have anything specific to help with). And, I suspect there are more capable developers who are closer to the edge than me. Anyway, having a slightly lower bar to get started may not get more developers involved, but instead my get them involved more quickly.

chubot 9y ago
Linux is one of the few open source projects to with plenty of developers. They don't need or even want your help, especially if your attitude toward tools is rigid, and if you have nothing concrete to contribute. Linus has said this a few times -- in general they don't actively try to onboard new contributors.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  "They don't need or even want your help" There was in fact a talk given by Greg Kroah-Hartman, one Linux's lead maintainers, about development for the Linux kernel which he titled "I Don't Want Your Code". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMeH7wqOwXA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMeH7wqOwXA
  - chubot 9y ago
    Haha, thanks for the video. I watched it, and I was surprised to see that it's about a specific company. He's at Linaro, specfically taking their developers to task for sending bad patches. And they indeed sound horrible, but he's good natured about it. I'm just starting to accept patches for my project, and honestly I'm flabberghasted that people will send patches that not only don't run, but don't build. And Greg was saying the same thing. I guess I got spoiled at my last job, where people generally sent high quality patches / code reviews. Although toward the end, I noticed some sloppiness. It wasn't the main reason I left the company, but it started to feel like the downfall... I don't want to work with people who don't know how to submit code reviews / patches.

retox 9y ago

I wonder if the email list acts as a gateway to filter potential troublemakers and trolls. A troll denied their audience is a troll defeated.

ajdlinux 9y ago
The kernel lists get plenty of trolls regardless.