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I have never seen any career that is so deeply tied to a certain culture as CS/SWE and a certain culture that I'll call X, to avoid any discussions on naming an

I have never seen any career that is so deeply tied to a certain culture as CS/SWE and a certain culture that I'll call X, to avoid any discussions on naming and so on. I see far more diversity in tastes and interests in most other majors and careers, while in CS/SWE, X seems to hold a monopoly. CS/SWE goes far beyond a career, usually becoming close to a religion or way of life. I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby, but in CS/SWE, you're evaluated by your hobbie-contributions on GitHub, your postings to HackerNews, etc. There's not a lot of room for people to be in CS/SWE and not take part in all this non-work community. And that brings us to X, a set of interests and values that permeate CS/SWE workers, and frequently makes those interested in CS/SWE feel unwelcome if they don't take part in X. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman (or any of the other identities/genders/etc.), if you don't like X (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more), there's a good chance that you might not feel like you belong in CS/SWE (this isn't universal, and I've seen many teams that embrace cultural diversity pretty well). Sadly, for whatever reasons (I have my own hypothesis that the rise of male-dominated gaming culture in the 80's and its further attachment to CS studies due to the overlap between coding and gaming is the cause) X is male-dominated. So even if men who don't take part in X feel unwelcome, the impact is bigger on women, as they have a much lower representation in X. One of the key pieces of information that led me to think like this, was this: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachelors-degrees-women-usa.png http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel... I don't claim any authority on this, or even that this is correct. These are just my own (low-n) observations, and I'm pretty sure a good part (if not all) of it probably doesn't stand up to reality. So I'm probably all wrong here, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. My gut feeling is that I shouldn't post this, as the previous discussions here about this issue are borderline flamewars, from both sides, but I still have hope that some good discussions are possible here.

notacoward 9y ago
I've noticed something pretty similar. I do appreciate video games and board games and speculative fiction and sushi and campy/punny humor and all the rest, but I've worked at companies where anyone who leaned more toward Agatha Christie and cake decorating (for example) might have felt pretty left out. The more pure-software a company is, the more everybody seems to assume that others share at least 70% of the standard obsessions - which now includes weight training, home brewing, and beard maintenance as well. It's pretty sad when people in advertising or even finance seem to have and accommodate more diverse interests. Wouldn't be surprised if undertakers do too, though I don't happen to know any personally. We are an extraordinarily fashion-driven folk, and that's not a good thing.
Gabriel_Martin 9y ago
You've avoided any discussion at all with your confusing use of a variable instead of just making a clear statement
- tptacek 9y ago
  No, his argument is straightforward and lots of other people have made it before. A shorter way of saying it would be "if you don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers, you are likely to be made to feel unwelcome".
  - js8 9y ago
    > "if you don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers, you are likely to be made to feel unwelcome" Funny, I don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers. I like Minecraft, and only one colleague I know who enjoys it is a (very smart) woman, although she is a tech writer, not a developer (she is perfectly capable of programming, in fact it is her hobby, she just likes writing better). So please, don't stereotype. :-)
    - tptacek 9y ago
      I'm deliberately oversimplifying. If you: 1. Like sports 2. Wear expensive or formal clothing 3. Dislike video games 4. Are uninterested in science fiction 5. Don't drink 6. Are over 50 ... you'll find valley software development culturally inhospitable. Obviously, lots of well-dressed 50 year old baseball fans have programming jobs. But those people don't "read" as software developers, and if you take those people and strip away their resumes, they will underperform people that don't have those characteristics in software development interviews.
    - needlessly2 9y ago
      i'm a guy and i don't enjoy video games any more. I just feel i've grown out of that phase when I was 15. I'd rather go swimming, hiking, and try out different restaurants/bars.
- 9y ago
jasode 9y ago
>There's not a lot of room for people to be in CS/SWE and not take part in all this non-work community. There's actually plenty of room for that type of programmer personality: the jobs at non-software companies where programmers are a cost center. E.g. enterprisey - line-of-business - type of programming. Actually, the "back-office" type of software dev is the majority of programming jobs out there. Yes, there may be a few "enterprise" managers here or there that might be impressed with extra-curricular programming but it's often not a reasonable scenario. (E.g. virtually no programmer that knows a 4GL like SAP ABAP language (business process programming) will be maintaining a github profile full of ABAP code.) It's the founders and managers at tech companies that value the developers that enjoy programming on their own. The founders themselves often started programming as kids and so it makes the most sense to them to try and attract programmers with the same enthusiasm. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be strictly a 9-to-5 Mon-Fri programmer. That life approach meshes better with companies outside of Silicon Valley.
- ucaetano 9y ago
  > There's actually plenty of room for that type of programmer personality And how do you get into those jobs when even CS students still share the same culture? It goes back to the chart I mentioned: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachelors-degrees-women-usa.png http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel...
  - sigstoat 9y ago
    my father taught programming and CS-lite courses at a community college for decades. whatever culture the students have, it sure as hell isn't the valley one, or anything like i saw in university.
    - ucaetano 9y ago
      I'm not talking about valley culture, but, for example, liking star wars, XKCD, Tolkien, video games, etc. Do the students in those community colleges share that as well?
zamalek 9y ago
> These are just my own (low-n) observations Same disclaimer. I used to be the guy who only did X (from age 8). Spending all my free time doing X impressively improved my ability to do that but only until the day that X became my job. From that day forward, any benefit derived in terms of mastery was vastly overshadowed by fatigue and burnout. The more I participated in X after-hours the worse I became at life in general (X by association). I used to bring up topics like that at work. I would brag about my weekend/month project to coworkers; the praise made me feel better about my mundane weekend. I honestly loved hearing about weekends that had nothing to do with tech because I wanted that. I do now and I honestly never want to go back to doing weekends of X. When everyone is done gushing over the stories of the fiber in the basement (you can too and learn something), share your story about your hike up a mountain. You can't claim that people aren't interested in something (even so far as learning themselves) if you haven't actually tested those waters.
msla 9y ago
Doctors and lawyers can't do their work as a hobby. There are laws against that. But I can say from personal experiences that doctors talk about their work in their off-hours, usually in great detail, and over meals. Nurses, too. Obviously, computer programmers can program anywhere, anytime, and it's legal. It's also possible to get a very early (as in pre-pubescent) start in actual programming, whereas there are, again, legal hurdles to becoming a doctor or a lawyer much younger than the median. As for the rest of the cultural markers, I wouldn't presume to say too much, because I don't know that many programmers.
qq66 9y ago
> I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby That's more because it's hard to engage in medicine or law outside of an institution, which makes it hard to hobby with on the weekends. Plenty of auto mechanics fix cars on the weekend, plenty of graphic designers do personal art projects on the weekends. There are also plenty who don't.
- needlessly2 9y ago
  also doctors and lawyers already have 70+ hour weeks. They're too exhausted for any side projects. Easier to do that if you have a 40 hour week
belorn 9y ago
Take a look at other artistic work, like say people involved in making movies? Do they too practice outside work as a hobby? Take someone like Adam Savage. Talking about being in front of the camera, behind it, being producer, or just being a consumer of other peoples work. Talking about the script, the camera technology, the set, the props, the making of props. About side projects, personal project, about other from of artistic endeavors. I don't know personally that industry, but from everything I hear, it seems common behavior that people in the TV and movie industry often have a personal connection to the work they do. Maybe it just that when people create things and are allowed to be artistic, then the work tend to melt into the personality of those that are passionate about it.
com2kid 9y ago
> I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby Doctors read through medical literature all the time. I know plumbers who have fully decked out their house with incredible custom setups (e.g. hydronically heated walls), mechanics who work on their own cars on the weekend, contractors who live in fabulous homes they built themselves, and artists who work on their own projects during the weekend. At the same time, many of my coworkers have interests outside of technology. It varies. A lot. > (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more) Hiking, sailing, martial arts, world travel, cooking, beer, animal rehabilitation. > (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more), Sci-fi and Fantasy movies have been mainstream for some time, and my non-engineering friends get together for board games as often as my engineering friends. Video games are played by 49% of Americans (Pew), equally split between men and women. I've known men and women who have had cultural problems fitting into their teams, engineering and non-engineering. Also in regards to the article, music is even worse than politics for % chance of finding agreement, if I brought up the latest \m/ concert I went to, I'd find maybe a couple of people in total who'd want to talk about it at my office! It'd be "how was it? Nice, ok, cool."
kamaal 9y ago
>>I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby, but in CS/SWE, you're evaluated by your hobbie-contributions on GitHub, your postings to HackerNews, etc. There is no dearth of doctors who volunteer to serve for International Red Cross, Doctors beyond borders, or like in my country(India)-- Go to far away villages and set up diabetes, thyroid and cataract camps to help treat people for free. Many lawyers routinely do volunteer work for many causes that can't afford legal work. The biggest reason I go the mechanic close to my home to get my motorcycle fixed, is because he seems to be insanely passionate about it and in his spare time(Usually late nights, in a job which is physically taxing) resurrects vintage motor cycles for sheer passion. Its not exactly wrong to be hard working and passionate about something.
cafard 9y ago
Are doctors and lawyers really a good comparison? Doctors sacrifice their late 20s to ridiculous hours as interns and residents. The lawyers who make partner in big-name firms work ridiculous hours to do so. In these professions the women are putting in the hours.
needlessly2 9y ago
I kind of disagree with the gaming part. I'm almost sure that most hardcore gamers actually never become part of the CS/SWE crowd because of video game addiction. Gaming and software development are two very different domains. Hardcore gamers usually are not motivated, accomplish very little, and lack in career development.
- nikdaheratik 9y ago
  I think it depends on your definition of "hardcore", but there are alot of good software people who game well above average even if it is below the level many would consider "obsessive". The best computer games have alot in common with software design as far as thinking about how a system works, planning for edge cases that could lead to problems/opportunities, and developing the patience to find which strategies pay off over a long period of time. More than that, I often find that the most addicted hardcore gamers are people who are using that to replace the sense of purpose that work gives them, which means they're pretty hard working once they find a career they enjoy. Of course, then they might turn into a workaholic instead...
  - needlessly2 9y ago
    This a little bit of overlap, but I don't think there's significant overlap between gamers and software developers. Writing code and playing a video are two very different experiences. Sure, you'll need to test the game, but testing games is not a fun time contrary to popular belief. And more important, the vast majority of software developers do not actually work in the video game industry. Most either work in systems development or make CRUD apps.

notacoward 9y ago

I've noticed something pretty similar. I do appreciate video games and board games and speculative fiction and sushi and campy/punny humor and all the rest, but I've worked at companies where anyone who leaned more toward Agatha Christie and cake decorating (for example) might have felt pretty left out. The more pure-software a company is, the more everybody seems to assume that others share at least 70% of the standard obsessions - which now includes weight training, home brewing, and beard maintenance as well. It's pretty sad when people in advertising or even finance seem to have and accommodate more diverse interests. Wouldn't be surprised if undertakers do too, though I don't happen to know any personally. We are an extraordinarily fashion-driven folk, and that's not a good thing.

Gabriel_Martin 9y ago

You've avoided any discussion at all with your confusing use of a variable instead of just making a clear statement

tptacek 9y ago
No, his argument is straightforward and lots of other people have made it before. A shorter way of saying it would be "if you don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers, you are likely to be made to feel unwelcome".
- js8 9y ago
  > "if you don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers, you are likely to be made to feel unwelcome" Funny, I don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers. I like Minecraft, and only one colleague I know who enjoys it is a (very smart) woman, although she is a tech writer, not a developer (she is perfectly capable of programming, in fact it is her hobby, she just likes writing better). So please, don't stereotype. :-)
  - tptacek 9y ago
    I'm deliberately oversimplifying. If you: 1. Like sports 2. Wear expensive or formal clothing 3. Dislike video games 4. Are uninterested in science fiction 5. Don't drink 6. Are over 50 ... you'll find valley software development culturally inhospitable. Obviously, lots of well-dressed 50 year old baseball fans have programming jobs. But those people don't "read" as software developers, and if you take those people and strip away their resumes, they will underperform people that don't have those characteristics in software development interviews.
  - needlessly2 9y ago
    i'm a guy and i don't enjoy video games any more. I just feel i've grown out of that phase when I was 15. I'd rather go swimming, hiking, and try out different restaurants/bars.
9y ago

jasode 9y ago

>There's not a lot of room for people to be in CS/SWE and not take part in all this non-work community. There's actually plenty of room for that type of programmer personality: the jobs at non-software companies where programmers are a cost center. E.g. enterprisey - line-of-business - type of programming. Actually, the "back-office" type of software dev is the majority of programming jobs out there. Yes, there may be a few "enterprise" managers here or there that might be impressed with extra-curricular programming but it's often not a reasonable scenario. (E.g. virtually no programmer that knows a 4GL like SAP ABAP language (business process programming) will be maintaining a github profile full of ABAP code.) It's the founders and managers at tech companies that value the developers that enjoy programming on their own. The founders themselves often started programming as kids and so it makes the most sense to them to try and attract programmers with the same enthusiasm. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be strictly a 9-to-5 Mon-Fri programmer. That life approach meshes better with companies outside of Silicon Valley.

ucaetano 9y ago
> There's actually plenty of room for that type of programmer personality And how do you get into those jobs when even CS students still share the same culture? It goes back to the chart I mentioned: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachelors-degrees-women-usa.png http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel...
- sigstoat 9y ago
  my father taught programming and CS-lite courses at a community college for decades. whatever culture the students have, it sure as hell isn't the valley one, or anything like i saw in university.
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    I'm not talking about valley culture, but, for example, liking star wars, XKCD, Tolkien, video games, etc. Do the students in those community colleges share that as well?

zamalek 9y ago

> These are just my own (low-n) observations Same disclaimer. I used to be the guy who only did X (from age 8). Spending all my free time doing X impressively improved my ability to do that but only until the day that X became my job. From that day forward, any benefit derived in terms of mastery was vastly overshadowed by fatigue and burnout. The more I participated in X after-hours the worse I became at life in general (X by association). I used to bring up topics like that at work. I would brag about my weekend/month project to coworkers; the praise made me feel better about my mundane weekend. I honestly loved hearing about weekends that had nothing to do with tech because I wanted that. I do now and I honestly never want to go back to doing weekends of X. When everyone is done gushing over the stories of the fiber in the basement (you can too and learn something), share your story about your hike up a mountain. You can't claim that people aren't interested in something (even so far as learning themselves) if you haven't actually tested those waters.

msla 9y ago

Doctors and lawyers can't do their work as a hobby. There are laws against that. But I can say from personal experiences that doctors talk about their work in their off-hours, usually in great detail, and over meals. Nurses, too. Obviously, computer programmers can program anywhere, anytime, and it's legal. It's also possible to get a very early (as in pre-pubescent) start in actual programming, whereas there are, again, legal hurdles to becoming a doctor or a lawyer much younger than the median. As for the rest of the cultural markers, I wouldn't presume to say too much, because I don't know that many programmers.

qq66 9y ago

> I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby That's more because it's hard to engage in medicine or law outside of an institution, which makes it hard to hobby with on the weekends. Plenty of auto mechanics fix cars on the weekend, plenty of graphic designers do personal art projects on the weekends. There are also plenty who don't.

needlessly2 9y ago
also doctors and lawyers already have 70+ hour weeks. They're too exhausted for any side projects. Easier to do that if you have a 40 hour week

belorn 9y ago

Take a look at other artistic work, like say people involved in making movies? Do they too practice outside work as a hobby? Take someone like Adam Savage. Talking about being in front of the camera, behind it, being producer, or just being a consumer of other peoples work. Talking about the script, the camera technology, the set, the props, the making of props. About side projects, personal project, about other from of artistic endeavors. I don't know personally that industry, but from everything I hear, it seems common behavior that people in the TV and movie industry often have a personal connection to the work they do. Maybe it just that when people create things and are allowed to be artistic, then the work tend to melt into the personality of those that are passionate about it.

com2kid 9y ago

> I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby Doctors read through medical literature all the time. I know plumbers who have fully decked out their house with incredible custom setups (e.g. hydronically heated walls), mechanics who work on their own cars on the weekend, contractors who live in fabulous homes they built themselves, and artists who work on their own projects during the weekend. At the same time, many of my coworkers have interests outside of technology. It varies. A lot. > (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more) Hiking, sailing, martial arts, world travel, cooking, beer, animal rehabilitation. > (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more), Sci-fi and Fantasy movies have been mainstream for some time, and my non-engineering friends get together for board games as often as my engineering friends. Video games are played by 49% of Americans (Pew), equally split between men and women. I've known men and women who have had cultural problems fitting into their teams, engineering and non-engineering. Also in regards to the article, music is even worse than politics for % chance of finding agreement, if I brought up the latest \m/ concert I went to, I'd find maybe a couple of people in total who'd want to talk about it at my office! It'd be "how was it? Nice, ok, cool."

kamaal 9y ago

>>I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby, but in CS/SWE, you're evaluated by your hobbie-contributions on GitHub, your postings to HackerNews, etc. There is no dearth of doctors who volunteer to serve for International Red Cross, Doctors beyond borders, or like in my country(India)-- Go to far away villages and set up diabetes, thyroid and cataract camps to help treat people for free. Many lawyers routinely do volunteer work for many causes that can't afford legal work. The biggest reason I go the mechanic close to my home to get my motorcycle fixed, is because he seems to be insanely passionate about it and in his spare time(Usually late nights, in a job which is physically taxing) resurrects vintage motor cycles for sheer passion. Its not exactly wrong to be hard working and passionate about something.

cafard 9y ago

Are doctors and lawyers really a good comparison? Doctors sacrifice their late 20s to ridiculous hours as interns and residents. The lawyers who make partner in big-name firms work ridiculous hours to do so. In these professions the women are putting in the hours.

needlessly2 9y ago

I kind of disagree with the gaming part. I'm almost sure that most hardcore gamers actually never become part of the CS/SWE crowd because of video game addiction. Gaming and software development are two very different domains. Hardcore gamers usually are not motivated, accomplish very little, and lack in career development.

nikdaheratik 9y ago
I think it depends on your definition of "hardcore", but there are alot of good software people who game well above average even if it is below the level many would consider "obsessive". The best computer games have alot in common with software design as far as thinking about how a system works, planning for edge cases that could lead to problems/opportunities, and developing the patience to find which strategies pay off over a long period of time. More than that, I often find that the most addicted hardcore gamers are people who are using that to replace the sense of purpose that work gives them, which means they're pretty hard working once they find a career they enjoy. Of course, then they might turn into a workaholic instead...
- needlessly2 9y ago
  This a little bit of overlap, but I don't think there's significant overlap between gamers and software developers. Writing code and playing a video are two very different experiences. Sure, you'll need to test the game, but testing games is not a fun time contrary to popular belief. And more important, the vast majority of software developers do not actually work in the video game industry. Most either work in systems development or make CRUD apps.