6 ms·

One more little sign America is more and more retiring its leadership in the world, opening doors for other nations to be more developed? In a time where many

by geff82 9y ago

One more little sign America is more and more retiring its leadership in the world, opening doors for other nations to be more developed? In a time where many European countries aim at providing 100Mbit as a minimum in the next years and thus also open rural areas for economic development, decision/opinions as the one described in the article seem ludicrous. Of course, providing net infrastructure in the US with its huge size is a challenge. Yet, in a country like Sweden with similar population density, 100Mbit is already kind of the basic minimum even in remote areas. Here in my town in Germany we had super slow internet until 3 years ago. Now I can choose up to 400Mbit from different providers (100Mbit DSL or up to 400Mbit cable). Connectivity skyrocketed and it does in many other European areas. Now the US decides to lower standards? Is it the same kind of thinking as "we don't need high speed trains, we will have Hyperloop in 50 years", just adapted to "everything will be mobile one day"?

mtanski 9y ago
Feels like we're not even trying to pretend like we're reaching for greatness. I am far less in love with the country then I once was; there is little audacity to reach for more as a country on many fronts (infrastructure, healthcare, education, general well being, connectivity).
- JBlue42 9y ago
  That's the thing. We talk a big game, think technology can solve anything, but then when it comes down to basics, we say "Nah, too hard...too much space, etc etc".
  - losteric 9y ago
    Plus war. So much endless mindless war... Since 2001, America has spent an average of ~$300 billion dollars per year on the nebulous war in the Middle East. Terrorists are media-hyped paper cuts compared to over 1 million Americans a year dying due to heart disease and cancer ($11B/y federal R&D) - not to mention Alzheimers, diabetes, obesity... and, to be blunt, you and almost everyone you know will probably die from one of those diseases. For perspective: on average terrorism kills ~79 Americans per year (including 9/11). There are 121 American suicides per day. The math doesn't make sense on any level. $300B/y killing people thousands of miles away and directly fueling increased hatred towards our nation... and a mere $11B/y invested in heard disease + cancer, which saves millions of citizen's at home. Even pie-in-the-sky research like fusion is a better investment. Fusion would solve or mitigate large global problems, including terrorism, yet it receives a mere 1/1000th the funding level as our wars. The real problem is we keep voting for the establishment parties because we believe that "3rd party will never win" dogma both parties roll out. Remember this: Nobody won the 2016 popular vote. 40% of Americans didn't vote last year, 30% voted Trump, 30% voted Clinton - and many of those 30% were compromise voters that would have preferred a different primary candidate, or simply voted against the opponent's candidate. This is democracy. If we want something different, we have to vote for someone different.
    - rgbrenner 9y ago
      Yes... and starting a couple of days ago, the media has been really playing up the NK threat.. a real change -- in the past, Kim would make threats, and basically be ignored.. but now the same threats are front page news. So of course we don't have money for any of those things... we need to save it for NK.
    - ameister14 9y ago
      By your metric, nobody has won the popular vote in 2012, 2008, 2004, 2000, 96, 92, 88, 84, 80, etc. either.
      - losteric 9y ago
        That's right. We're chronic non-voters that are blind to the significance of that block.
        croon 9y ago
        To add a comparison to your point, in the last election in Sweden, 85.8% of the voting-age population voted. A few key differences: * Everyone is already registered to vote (through IRS equivalent records) * It's always on a Sunday * Everyone gets a letter home in advance telling them where to go to vote (60% usually do this), or how to mail-in vote. * Identification is handled either through ID/drivers license, OR someone with a valid ID vouching for your identity. * There are 8+ parties to vote from, and you get parliament representation if your newly created party gets 4% of votes.
- HillaryBriss 9y ago
  i'm less in love with national greatness than i once was. IMHO, a tolerable mediocrity across every field would be better than national greatness if that mediocrity were uniformly distributed across the country and its residents.
- Clubber 9y ago
  Companies have lobbies, people typically don't. The FCC is speaking for the large ISP's that lobby politicians to do so.
mobilefriendly 9y ago
America has always had terrible internet access, Congress long ago created monopolies for telephony and cable video and the legacy of those policies are still the problem today (two massive and completely different regulatory regimes and two industries that are totally politicized and the largest political donors). Similarly Amtrak is a government monopoly disaster, there's no opportunity for private investment in U.S. passenger rail. Wikipedia says there are 1,500 private passenger rail companies in Germany. There are none here, outside of a handful of tourist experience lines. Our privately owned freight rail is, however, the finest in the world.
- geff82 9y ago
  Remember: at least the US were the first country to ever have internet at all :) So from whatever we profit now, USA invented it.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Well, Switzerland (CERN) was the first place to have the world wide web...
    - albertgoeswoof 9y ago
      Don't forget that Tim Berners-lee is British
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - HillaryBriss 9y ago
    any country that pioneers a technology and implements the first generation of it will tend to lag as the second and third generations of that technology are developed.
  - s73ver 9y ago
    And how does that get me better internet access?
rayiner 9y ago
Looking at population density alone is misleading; what you really want is population-weighted population density (i.e. how dense are the places where people live). Sweden has large sparsely-populated areas, but almost the whole population is clustered in a handful of major cities. The Stockholm metro area has a quarter of the entire country's population. If the U.S. population were distributed the same way, the D.C. metro area would have 80 million people over an area including Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware. (Instead, it has only 6 million people and the vast majority of those states are rural). In any event, the U.S.'s proportion of higher-speed connections compares pretty well to Sweden. According to Akamai, in Q4 2016 the U.S. at 42% of connections above 15 mbps. That's less than Sweden (49%) but comparable to Finland (44%). It's way higher than Germany (30%).
- icebraining 9y ago
  I find those numbers highly suspect. In Portugal, 94% of the subscribers had a contracted speed of 20mbps or more. Now, contracted is not real, but only 28% above 15mbps? And dropping? That makes no sense.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- geff82 9y ago
  Good broadband is no doubt still an issue in parts of Germany, especially if not cable is available. But I see a big political push and discussion on how to have higher standards and how to reach them. No one says "well then, lets make the status quo the standard". I have to say that recently I sound much too arrogant concerning the US. Sorry to you guys. It is just that the little Texas landowner in me, that I am, wants to cry at night at the sum of this years politics. It has not been like that the governments before. If there is a country that has a place in my heart, it is yours.
- _delirium 9y ago
  Even many dense urban areas in the U.S. have quite low broadband penetration, so it can't be chalked up entirely to low-density areas like small towns and rural areas. According to Fivethirtyeight [1], only 28% of adults within the D.C. city limits have home internet faster than dialup. And Manhattan, pretty much the most urbanized locale in the country, is only a bit higher, at 36%. Many low-density exurban areas are actually higher than that, so something other than density is responsible. [1] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lots-of-people-in-cities-still-cant-afford-broadband/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lots-of-people-in-citie...
coldtea 9y ago
>One more little sign America is more and more retiring its leadership in the world, opening doors for other nations to be more developed? What leadership (except in economy size and military)? Other nations have been more developed in internet, infrastructure, healthcare, education, work culture, etc for decades.
- ameister14 9y ago
  For about 15-20 years, really, though I can see why it would feel longer.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    I don't think that e.g. the nordic countries or Switzerland were worse than the US in 1960 or 1970. Heck, parts of NY were like a developing world city back then, much less places in the South and co...
- stass 9y ago
  Which nations? The only country which would be even comparable to US in terms of connectivity, healthcare and education quality, UK is still lagging behind US in all these matters. Good luck trying to get decent LTE or even 3G in London, or a proper timely healthcare for anything relatively complicated. Are the other nations which are ahead in US in these areas which I am missing?
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >The only country which would be even comparable to US in terms of connectivity, healthcare and education quality, UK is still lagging behind US in all these matters. I think you should travel more. Maybe try Switzerland or the nordic region? In internet speeds for example, the US just made it in the top 10 this year: https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-country.php https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-cou... And if you visit a place like Switzerland you'll wonder what kind of developing world nightmare is the US compared to their efficiency, cleanliness, infrastructure, government services, and lots of other things besides. It's also a few places ahead of the US in per capita GDP. But then again, several countries are: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... Not also how Sweden, Norway, Switcherland and Denmark have higher per capita median income than the US (adjusted for purchasing parity etc): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income (Apart from access to healthcare, UK is less developed in those areas than lots of countries)
mtaksrud 9y ago
100Mbit? That was a decade ago. I now have 500Mbit, but my ISP can easily deliver 1Gbit if I feel the need.
- CamelCaseName 9y ago
  He is talking about a national minimum, not the speed of any one client.

by geff82 9y ago

mtanski 9y ago

Feels like we're not even trying to pretend like we're reaching for greatness. I am far less in love with the country then I once was; there is little audacity to reach for more as a country on many fronts (infrastructure, healthcare, education, general well being, connectivity).

JBlue42 9y ago
That's the thing. We talk a big game, think technology can solve anything, but then when it comes down to basics, we say "Nah, too hard...too much space, etc etc".
- losteric 9y ago
  Plus war. So much endless mindless war... Since 2001, America has spent an average of ~$300 billion dollars per year on the nebulous war in the Middle East. Terrorists are media-hyped paper cuts compared to over 1 million Americans a year dying due to heart disease and cancer ($11B/y federal R&D) - not to mention Alzheimers, diabetes, obesity... and, to be blunt, you and almost everyone you know will probably die from one of those diseases. For perspective: on average terrorism kills ~79 Americans per year (including 9/11). There are 121 American suicides per day. The math doesn't make sense on any level. $300B/y killing people thousands of miles away and directly fueling increased hatred towards our nation... and a mere $11B/y invested in heard disease + cancer, which saves millions of citizen's at home. Even pie-in-the-sky research like fusion is a better investment. Fusion would solve or mitigate large global problems, including terrorism, yet it receives a mere 1/1000th the funding level as our wars. The real problem is we keep voting for the establishment parties because we believe that "3rd party will never win" dogma both parties roll out. Remember this: Nobody won the 2016 popular vote. 40% of Americans didn't vote last year, 30% voted Trump, 30% voted Clinton - and many of those 30% were compromise voters that would have preferred a different primary candidate, or simply voted against the opponent's candidate. This is democracy. If we want something different, we have to vote for someone different.
  - rgbrenner 9y ago
    Yes... and starting a couple of days ago, the media has been really playing up the NK threat.. a real change -- in the past, Kim would make threats, and basically be ignored.. but now the same threats are front page news. So of course we don't have money for any of those things... we need to save it for NK.
  - ameister14 9y ago
    By your metric, nobody has won the popular vote in 2012, 2008, 2004, 2000, 96, 92, 88, 84, 80, etc. either.
    - losteric 9y ago
      That's right. We're chronic non-voters that are blind to the significance of that block.
      - croon 9y ago
        To add a comparison to your point, in the last election in Sweden, 85.8% of the voting-age population voted. A few key differences: * Everyone is already registered to vote (through IRS equivalent records) * It's always on a Sunday * Everyone gets a letter home in advance telling them where to go to vote (60% usually do this), or how to mail-in vote. * Identification is handled either through ID/drivers license, OR someone with a valid ID vouching for your identity. * There are 8+ parties to vote from, and you get parliament representation if your newly created party gets 4% of votes.
HillaryBriss 9y ago
i'm less in love with national greatness than i once was. IMHO, a tolerable mediocrity across every field would be better than national greatness if that mediocrity were uniformly distributed across the country and its residents.
Clubber 9y ago
Companies have lobbies, people typically don't. The FCC is speaking for the large ISP's that lobby politicians to do so.

mobilefriendly 9y ago

America has always had terrible internet access, Congress long ago created monopolies for telephony and cable video and the legacy of those policies are still the problem today (two massive and completely different regulatory regimes and two industries that are totally politicized and the largest political donors). Similarly Amtrak is a government monopoly disaster, there's no opportunity for private investment in U.S. passenger rail. Wikipedia says there are 1,500 private passenger rail companies in Germany. There are none here, outside of a handful of tourist experience lines. Our privately owned freight rail is, however, the finest in the world.

geff82 9y ago
Remember: at least the US were the first country to ever have internet at all :) So from whatever we profit now, USA invented it.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Well, Switzerland (CERN) was the first place to have the world wide web...
  - albertgoeswoof 9y ago
    Don't forget that Tim Berners-lee is British
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- HillaryBriss 9y ago
  any country that pioneers a technology and implements the first generation of it will tend to lag as the second and third generations of that technology are developed.
- s73ver 9y ago
  And how does that get me better internet access?

rayiner 9y ago

Looking at population density alone is misleading; what you really want is population-weighted population density (i.e. how dense are the places where people live). Sweden has large sparsely-populated areas, but almost the whole population is clustered in a handful of major cities. The Stockholm metro area has a quarter of the entire country's population. If the U.S. population were distributed the same way, the D.C. metro area would have 80 million people over an area including Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware. (Instead, it has only 6 million people and the vast majority of those states are rural). In any event, the U.S.'s proportion of higher-speed connections compares pretty well to Sweden. According to Akamai, in Q4 2016 the U.S. at 42% of connections above 15 mbps. That's less than Sweden (49%) but comparable to Finland (44%). It's way higher than Germany (30%).

icebraining 9y ago
I find those numbers highly suspect. In Portugal, 94% of the subscribers had a contracted speed of 20mbps or more. Now, contracted is not real, but only 28% above 15mbps? And dropping? That makes no sense.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
geff82 9y ago
Good broadband is no doubt still an issue in parts of Germany, especially if not cable is available. But I see a big political push and discussion on how to have higher standards and how to reach them. No one says "well then, lets make the status quo the standard". I have to say that recently I sound much too arrogant concerning the US. Sorry to you guys. It is just that the little Texas landowner in me, that I am, wants to cry at night at the sum of this years politics. It has not been like that the governments before. If there is a country that has a place in my heart, it is yours.
_delirium 9y ago
Even many dense urban areas in the U.S. have quite low broadband penetration, so it can't be chalked up entirely to low-density areas like small towns and rural areas. According to Fivethirtyeight [1], only 28% of adults within the D.C. city limits have home internet faster than dialup. And Manhattan, pretty much the most urbanized locale in the country, is only a bit higher, at 36%. Many low-density exurban areas are actually higher than that, so something other than density is responsible. [1] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lots-of-people-in-cities-still-cant-afford-broadband/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lots-of-people-in-citie...

coldtea 9y ago

>One more little sign America is more and more retiring its leadership in the world, opening doors for other nations to be more developed? What leadership (except in economy size and military)? Other nations have been more developed in internet, infrastructure, healthcare, education, work culture, etc for decades.

ameister14 9y ago
For about 15-20 years, really, though I can see why it would feel longer.
- coldtea 9y ago
  I don't think that e.g. the nordic countries or Switzerland were worse than the US in 1960 or 1970. Heck, parts of NY were like a developing world city back then, much less places in the South and co...
stass 9y ago
Which nations? The only country which would be even comparable to US in terms of connectivity, healthcare and education quality, UK is still lagging behind US in all these matters. Good luck trying to get decent LTE or even 3G in London, or a proper timely healthcare for anything relatively complicated. Are the other nations which are ahead in US in these areas which I am missing?
- coldtea 9y ago
  >The only country which would be even comparable to US in terms of connectivity, healthcare and education quality, UK is still lagging behind US in all these matters. I think you should travel more. Maybe try Switzerland or the nordic region? In internet speeds for example, the US just made it in the top 10 this year: https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-country.php https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-cou... And if you visit a place like Switzerland you'll wonder what kind of developing world nightmare is the US compared to their efficiency, cleanliness, infrastructure, government services, and lots of other things besides. It's also a few places ahead of the US in per capita GDP. But then again, several countries are: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... Not also how Sweden, Norway, Switcherland and Denmark have higher per capita median income than the US (adjusted for purchasing parity etc): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income (Apart from access to healthcare, UK is less developed in those areas than lots of countries)

mtaksrud 9y ago

100Mbit? That was a decade ago. I now have 500Mbit, but my ISP can easily deliver 1Gbit if I feel the need.

CamelCaseName 9y ago
He is talking about a national minimum, not the speed of any one client.