5 ms·

Maybe, but solving truly big problems relies on people working together. Linus (and the unfortunate proliferation of jackasses who emulate him) do more to hinde

by jowiar 9y ago

Maybe, but solving truly big problems relies on people working together. Linus (and the unfortunate proliferation of jackasses who emulate him) do more to hinder progress than help it.

boomboomsubban 9y ago
He solved the problem with git, he's upset that the company trying to make money off it broke it again. Most of the times Linus is an asshole are completely justified. Being rude to groups like Nvidia isn't hindering progress.
- res0nat0r 9y ago
  I'm sure github has done more for git uptake than anyone else involved on the lkml or Linus himself. He should be thanking them for that.
  - uiri 9y ago
    He should only be thanking them for that if git uptake around a mutilated version of his tooling is something that Linus wants. I suspect very strongly that he doesn't want that. In fact, if GitHub were a less popular service he wouldn't need to spend nearly as much time dealing with people who don't RTFM and submit GitHub PRs despite Linus' objections to them.
    - qb45 9y ago
      > In fact, if GitHub were a less popular service he wouldn't need to spend nearly as much time dealing with people who don't RTFM and submit GitHub PRs despite Linus' objections to them. Does he even bother reading them nowadays? If anything, I would say that if git were less popular, its developers wouldn't have to deal with constant complaints that their UI scares noobs.
    - eosrei 9y ago
      He doesn't read them. There is a bot for that now. Example: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/445#issuecomment-320309817 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/445#issuecomment-3203...
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Why do you think he cares that anyone else besides Linux kernel developers use git?
- vertex-four 9y ago
  Ehh, he solved his problem with git + mailing lists. That doesn't make it the same problem everyone else wants to solve.
  - aisofteng 9y ago
    Yeah? What's the problem you solved for yourself?
- jowiar 9y ago
  I don't much care whether Linus individually has the justification to be an asshole or not. The problem is that Linus being an asshole causes many other engineers to think it's ok/expected/encouraged to be assholes. All the non-assholes quietly disappear and we're left with a room full of assholes.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    The whole "Linus is an asshole" is well overplayed, though. The guy's been developing Linux for 25 years, with most of his communications in the open. The kind of outburst he has once every few years, and which gets extensive coverage and discussion, is a weekly occurrence in many offices. It's just that we'll never hear of those.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      And I've yet to see someone single out a particularly nice and constructive comment and use that for a counterpoint.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - DSMan195276 9y ago
        I suppose I'll bite: https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/9/924 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/9/924 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/873 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/873 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/855 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/855 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/760 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/760 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/209 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/209 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/219 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/219 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/322 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/322 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/4/634 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/4/634 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/3/919 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/3/919 If you didn't notice from the dates, those are all (Literally all, I didn't leave any out) of Linus's emails from the past week or so. The only one that even really has a complaint in it is the ext4 one that you've likely already seen, and the rest are extremely helpful and include detailed descriptions of what he was thinking or what he'd like to see.
waivek 9y ago
I would like to think that Linux and Git have helped progress more than hinder it.
oh_sigh 9y ago
I'm curious - where do you think we would be today with the Linux kernel and git if Linus wasn't here?
- jowiar 9y ago
  Running on BSD and Mercurial? Wouldn't have made a lick of difference for most of us.
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    And yet, so many small and large organizations choose to use Linux and git over BSD and Mercurial, 'despite' Linus' management style.
    - jcranmer 9y ago
      If GitHub were based on Mercurial rather than git, we'd very likely see hg as the major VCS and git the lesser alternative. If FreeBSD weren't the target of a lawsuit in 1992 and 1993, it's plausible (by no means guaranteed) that it could have been the major OSS Unix distro instead of Linux. Technology choices are largely driven by network effects, and small variances in the seeds of the networks can ultimately dictate which networks win and which ones lose.
      - pessimizer 9y ago
        Github rode on the back of widespread adoption of git, not the other way around. It isn't like Bitbucket didn't exist.

by jowiar 9y ago

Maybe, but solving truly big problems relies on people working together. Linus (and the unfortunate proliferation of jackasses who emulate him) do more to hinder progress than help it.

boomboomsubban 9y ago

He solved the problem with git, he's upset that the company trying to make money off it broke it again. Most of the times Linus is an asshole are completely justified. Being rude to groups like Nvidia isn't hindering progress.

res0nat0r 9y ago
I'm sure github has done more for git uptake than anyone else involved on the lkml or Linus himself. He should be thanking them for that.
- uiri 9y ago
  He should only be thanking them for that if git uptake around a mutilated version of his tooling is something that Linus wants. I suspect very strongly that he doesn't want that. In fact, if GitHub were a less popular service he wouldn't need to spend nearly as much time dealing with people who don't RTFM and submit GitHub PRs despite Linus' objections to them.
  - qb45 9y ago
    > In fact, if GitHub were a less popular service he wouldn't need to spend nearly as much time dealing with people who don't RTFM and submit GitHub PRs despite Linus' objections to them. Does he even bother reading them nowadays? If anything, I would say that if git were less popular, its developers wouldn't have to deal with constant complaints that their UI scares noobs.
  - eosrei 9y ago
    He doesn't read them. There is a bot for that now. Example: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/445#issuecomment-320309817 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/445#issuecomment-3203...
- icebraining 9y ago
  Why do you think he cares that anyone else besides Linux kernel developers use git?
vertex-four 9y ago
Ehh, he solved his problem with git + mailing lists. That doesn't make it the same problem everyone else wants to solve.
- aisofteng 9y ago
  Yeah? What's the problem you solved for yourself?
jowiar 9y ago
I don't much care whether Linus individually has the justification to be an asshole or not. The problem is that Linus being an asshole causes many other engineers to think it's ok/expected/encouraged to be assholes. All the non-assholes quietly disappear and we're left with a room full of assholes.
- icebraining 9y ago
  The whole "Linus is an asshole" is well overplayed, though. The guy's been developing Linux for 25 years, with most of his communications in the open. The kind of outburst he has once every few years, and which gets extensive coverage and discussion, is a weekly occurrence in many offices. It's just that we'll never hear of those.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    And I've yet to see someone single out a particularly nice and constructive comment and use that for a counterpoint.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - DSMan195276 9y ago
      I suppose I'll bite: https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/9/924 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/9/924 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/873 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/873 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/855 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/855 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/760 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/8/760 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/209 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/209 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/219 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/219 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/322 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/6/322 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/4/634 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/4/634 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/3/919 https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/3/919 If you didn't notice from the dates, those are all (Literally all, I didn't leave any out) of Linus's emails from the past week or so. The only one that even really has a complaint in it is the ext4 one that you've likely already seen, and the rest are extremely helpful and include detailed descriptions of what he was thinking or what he'd like to see.

waivek 9y ago

I would like to think that Linux and Git have helped progress more than hinder it.

oh_sigh 9y ago

I'm curious - where do you think we would be today with the Linux kernel and git if Linus wasn't here?

jowiar 9y ago
Running on BSD and Mercurial? Wouldn't have made a lick of difference for most of us.
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  And yet, so many small and large organizations choose to use Linux and git over BSD and Mercurial, 'despite' Linus' management style.
  - jcranmer 9y ago
    If GitHub were based on Mercurial rather than git, we'd very likely see hg as the major VCS and git the lesser alternative. If FreeBSD weren't the target of a lawsuit in 1992 and 1993, it's plausible (by no means guaranteed) that it could have been the major OSS Unix distro instead of Linux. Technology choices are largely driven by network effects, and small variances in the seeds of the networks can ultimately dictate which networks win and which ones lose.
    - pessimizer 9y ago
      Github rode on the back of widespread adoption of git, not the other way around. It isn't like Bitbucket didn't exist.