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Author is projecting. Replaced "me" with "people" in writing this. Considered himself smart; tried to wrap head around Bitcoin, but lacks math/cs/finance bac

Author is projecting. Replaced "me" with "people" in writing this. Considered himself smart; tried to wrap head around Bitcoin, but lacks math/cs/finance background, and or curiosity to dig below surface level hype or read blockchain-y things beyond what's written by other lazy journalists ...? (now I'm projecting). Doesn't 'get it'. Plenty of people understand Bitcoin. Go read the whitepaper.

dlwdlw 9y ago
That's how people think...Creating models and theories via abstraction from personal experience and thoughts. All original ideas are projections in some way, requiring courage to put through into the world.
puranjay 9y ago
Which is what makes Bitcoin's democratic credentials so ridiculous. "It will free us from fiat money!" No it won't. It's just a transfer of wealth from educated elite to other educated elite. 99% of the world's population can't understand it. 99.5% can't mine it. It's so damn elitist that it's not even funny.
- dsego 9y ago
  F*k 'em, they can eat their prayers and nationalism.
  - dang 9y ago
    Comments like this break the HN guidelines. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.
- atemerev 9y ago
  The key difference is that you can _learn_ what Bitcoin is. And you can do it on your own, without prestigious colleges and country clubs.
- elmar 9y ago
  Many people in Venezuela have turned to Bitcoin mining in a desperate attempt to fend off starvation and keep their families alive. http://bitcoinist.com/starving-venezuelans-turn-to-bitcoin-mining-in-desperation/ http://bitcoinist.com/starving-venezuelans-turn-to-bitcoin-m...
  - elmar 9y ago
    Into this awful situation comes an unlikely savior in the form of Bitcoin. The Atlantic is reporting that many desperate Venezuelans have turned to mining bitcoins in order to feed their families. This unlikely scenario has come about due to one mitigating factor: electricity in this impoverished nation is essentially free as a result of the central government massively subsidizing it. Cheap power has allowed people to operate Bitcoin miners without the usual accompanying cost. Reports have stated that successful Bitcoin miners can earn up to $500 a month, which is enough to fully feed and supply a family of four. As the country’s cash currency is essentially worthless, many businesses and people are now using bitcoins to exchange goods and services. However, there is a fly in the ointment. President Maduro has begun cracking down on Bitcoin miners, calling them “capitalist parasites.” Yet trading bitcoins is still allowed. This has led to a number of miners being arrested on flimsy charges, which can occur as there are currently no cryptocurrency laws in Venezuela.
  - noddy1 9y ago
    I've been paying venezuelan contractors in bitcoin - it works amazingly well for them.
- jayd16 9y ago
  Very true. Even more so, fiat money is democratic as long as the government controlling it is. With something like bitcoin, it cements the establishment and removes fiscal policy options.
  - elmar 9y ago
    > removes fiscal policy options The results of the goverment fiscal policy are debatable. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14959790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14959790
- biggerbistro 9y ago
  How is this elitist? Do most people understand the current financial system in any meaningful way? Do most people understand how their computers work? How their air conditioner works? How about the pressure dynamics that make their toilets flush? Saying everyone can't mine it is inaccurate, everyone can mine it even with a smartphone. Is it profitable? No, but neither is mining iron ore with a shovel. Those with the knowledge and capital to fully utilize any system will always have an edge over those who don't, in what reality is this not the case?
  - UncleMeat 9y ago
    Because our financial system isn't portrayed as a technology that will bring the power to the people and free us from the shackles of elite organizations. Bitcoin is presented this way.
    - biggerbistro 9y ago
      Bitcoin won't free people who won't lift a finger to learn it just like the US constitution won't protect people unwilling to defend it. I've yet to meet someone who is unable to understand the basic use of bitcoin (sending and receiving) and if we are trying to cater to the lowest common denominator we have already lost. It is worrying that we have resorted to scrapping a new technology just because lazy or incompetent people are unable to completely master it.
- smitherfield 9y ago
  I agree the ideological arguments for Bitcoin are silly (as are all arguments that substitute ideology for substance), but there probably are a lot more people who can understand Bitcoin than modern-day monetary policy and banking.
- pyroinferno 9y ago
  Well, I'm guessing you've never used bitcoin before. Any idiot can understand how to use something like coinbase or an online wallet. You don't need to know how bitcoin works internally to be able to use it, just as you don't have to read the minix book to be able to use an Operating System.
- thephyber 9y ago
  > 99.5% can't mine it. Not relevant. Mining is no longer profitable for any new entrants without some incredible innovation in computing power or electricity costs. Even the miners are unlikely to make money from mining only from holding their mining gains as investments. > 99% of the world's population can't understand it. That's underselling the human population. I would posit 10-20% are probably mentally incapable of understanding the basics of modern finance, therefore have no chance at a new form of currency. For all of the rest, they can understand what they need to know to use it. BitCoin's entire proposal, including the original paper, the source code, millions of different explanations, and millions of different opinions about it are available for free. It's the most anti-elitist form of currency we have come up with. The costs of fiat currencies are hidden: central banks adjusting the money supply in real time at will, transactions aren't all visible to the globe on a single ledger, etc. I'm not even very bullish on BitCoin. But I don't find it remarkably elitist -- at least no more than previous currencies.
  - phkahler 9y ago
    >> Even the miners are unlikely to make money from mining only from holding their mining gains as investments. And that's why I've been calling it a Ponzi scheme lately. Once mining become unprofitable, or even impossible (asymptotically) people will stop mining, but the blockchain only works if people keep mining. At some point it's got to fail doesn't it?
    - tromp 9y ago
      > Once mining become unprofitable, or even impossible (asymptotically) people will stop mining It's self-correcting; fewer miners means higher profitability for remaining miners...
    - csuwldcat 9y ago
      False - mining in Bitcoin (which is really just transaction processing) is based on a math/crypto difficulty algo, and the system automatically adjusts itself every ~two weeks to fit the load/prevalence of miners and their block-finding success rates.
  - 9y ago
- shallot_router 9y ago
  Most people can understand it from the perspective of an end user, just as you and I can swipe a credit card without necessarily understanding all the underlying Chip & PIN and anti-fraud and bank processing technologies and processes.
- mdurbar 9y ago
  I disagree with that statement. I have seen the excitement for Bitcoin come about here in Pakistan, mainly from the lower class, to the middle class, I know the founders of one of the Bitcoin exchanges in Pakistan(Urdubit), and the number of people that come from the rural areas to trade or buy bitcoins, would surprise you. Yes, most people won't read the whitepaper, and many more will read it and won't understand it, but you don't need to understand the inner workings of it fully to take advantage of it. Yes, right now, creating a paper wallet, or storing your coins in cold storage can be a little bit difficult for most people, and till these things are simplified enough, my mum won't be using it to pay for groceries at the supermarket. But that's with any technology!
wmf 9y ago
Reading the whitepaper isn't really enough since there are non-obvious emergent effects that it doesn't mention.
exogeny 9y ago
>Plenty of people understand Bitcoin. Go read the whitepaper. Plenty of people on HN. Maybe. And that's about it. Mainstream acceptance is far, far away, and having a condescending attitudes towards those who struggle with the concept is not going to help.
- thephyber 9y ago
  Plenty of people understand the basics of BitCoin, that it is a currency and how to transact with an exchange that supports it. You don't need to know the knitty-gritty of SHA256, blockchains, or the game theory associated with Proof of Work to "understand" BitCoin. If you apply the same standards for "knowledge" of the US Dollar, you also have to require that people understand the intricacies of the US Treasury, the Mint, The Federal Reserve (and it's 12 constituent regional Central Banks), concepts of fiat currency, etc.
- slededit 9y ago
  Most people don't understand central banking, yet they use the existing monetary system just fine. Mainstream acceptance doesn't require universal knowledge - merely trust.
fellellor 9y ago
I think the point being conveyed is that, the internet or www was easily accessible to people who could go on to modify things to suit their own end. Yes, you can use bitcoin as is, thanks to a number of available software choices. But it is difficult to do anything else with it. However, at this point I can only see it as a currency. So I can't say if the second point is even applicable here. Maybe the reference is to the underlying blockchain, the effort required to understand it, and consequently customize it like people did with the older web technologies.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
cs702 9y ago
> Author is projecting. Replaced "me" with "people" in writing this. Considered himself smart; tried to wrap head around Bitcoin, but lacks math/cs/finance background, and or curiosity to dig below surface level hype... Doesn't 'get it'. Yes, exactly my thoughts. It's IMPOSSIBLE to understand HOW and WHY Bitcoin works without a baseline understanding of public-key cryptography, cryptographic hashing functions, key ideas of computational complexity, and algorithmic processes in distributed systems, particularly peer-to-peer networks. In other words, to understand how and why Bitcoin works, one must first understand the key concepts underpinning Satoshi Nakamoto's groundbreaking paper: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf The general public, lacking the necessary education and knowledge to understand these things, has no choice but to use Bitcoin based on faith and experience. Note that the general public doesn't understand government-issued money either, but they happily use it every day based on faith and experience. The same thing is happening with Bitcoin.

dlwdlw 9y ago

That's how people think...Creating models and theories via abstraction from personal experience and thoughts. All original ideas are projections in some way, requiring courage to put through into the world.

puranjay 9y ago

Which is what makes Bitcoin's democratic credentials so ridiculous. "It will free us from fiat money!" No it won't. It's just a transfer of wealth from educated elite to other educated elite. 99% of the world's population can't understand it. 99.5% can't mine it. It's so damn elitist that it's not even funny.

dsego 9y ago
F*k 'em, they can eat their prayers and nationalism.
- dang 9y ago
  Comments like this break the HN guidelines. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.
atemerev 9y ago
The key difference is that you can _learn_ what Bitcoin is. And you can do it on your own, without prestigious colleges and country clubs.
elmar 9y ago
Many people in Venezuela have turned to Bitcoin mining in a desperate attempt to fend off starvation and keep their families alive. http://bitcoinist.com/starving-venezuelans-turn-to-bitcoin-mining-in-desperation/ http://bitcoinist.com/starving-venezuelans-turn-to-bitcoin-m...
- elmar 9y ago
  Into this awful situation comes an unlikely savior in the form of Bitcoin. The Atlantic is reporting that many desperate Venezuelans have turned to mining bitcoins in order to feed their families. This unlikely scenario has come about due to one mitigating factor: electricity in this impoverished nation is essentially free as a result of the central government massively subsidizing it. Cheap power has allowed people to operate Bitcoin miners without the usual accompanying cost. Reports have stated that successful Bitcoin miners can earn up to $500 a month, which is enough to fully feed and supply a family of four. As the country’s cash currency is essentially worthless, many businesses and people are now using bitcoins to exchange goods and services. However, there is a fly in the ointment. President Maduro has begun cracking down on Bitcoin miners, calling them “capitalist parasites.” Yet trading bitcoins is still allowed. This has led to a number of miners being arrested on flimsy charges, which can occur as there are currently no cryptocurrency laws in Venezuela.
- noddy1 9y ago
  I've been paying venezuelan contractors in bitcoin - it works amazingly well for them.
jayd16 9y ago
Very true. Even more so, fiat money is democratic as long as the government controlling it is. With something like bitcoin, it cements the establishment and removes fiscal policy options.
- elmar 9y ago
  > removes fiscal policy options The results of the goverment fiscal policy are debatable. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14959790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14959790
biggerbistro 9y ago
How is this elitist? Do most people understand the current financial system in any meaningful way? Do most people understand how their computers work? How their air conditioner works? How about the pressure dynamics that make their toilets flush? Saying everyone can't mine it is inaccurate, everyone can mine it even with a smartphone. Is it profitable? No, but neither is mining iron ore with a shovel. Those with the knowledge and capital to fully utilize any system will always have an edge over those who don't, in what reality is this not the case?
- UncleMeat 9y ago
  Because our financial system isn't portrayed as a technology that will bring the power to the people and free us from the shackles of elite organizations. Bitcoin is presented this way.
  - biggerbistro 9y ago
    Bitcoin won't free people who won't lift a finger to learn it just like the US constitution won't protect people unwilling to defend it. I've yet to meet someone who is unable to understand the basic use of bitcoin (sending and receiving) and if we are trying to cater to the lowest common denominator we have already lost. It is worrying that we have resorted to scrapping a new technology just because lazy or incompetent people are unable to completely master it.
smitherfield 9y ago
I agree the ideological arguments for Bitcoin are silly (as are all arguments that substitute ideology for substance), but there probably are a lot more people who can understand Bitcoin than modern-day monetary policy and banking.
pyroinferno 9y ago
Well, I'm guessing you've never used bitcoin before. Any idiot can understand how to use something like coinbase or an online wallet. You don't need to know how bitcoin works internally to be able to use it, just as you don't have to read the minix book to be able to use an Operating System.
thephyber 9y ago
> 99.5% can't mine it. Not relevant. Mining is no longer profitable for any new entrants without some incredible innovation in computing power or electricity costs. Even the miners are unlikely to make money from mining only from holding their mining gains as investments. > 99% of the world's population can't understand it. That's underselling the human population. I would posit 10-20% are probably mentally incapable of understanding the basics of modern finance, therefore have no chance at a new form of currency. For all of the rest, they can understand what they need to know to use it. BitCoin's entire proposal, including the original paper, the source code, millions of different explanations, and millions of different opinions about it are available for free. It's the most anti-elitist form of currency we have come up with. The costs of fiat currencies are hidden: central banks adjusting the money supply in real time at will, transactions aren't all visible to the globe on a single ledger, etc. I'm not even very bullish on BitCoin. But I don't find it remarkably elitist -- at least no more than previous currencies.
- phkahler 9y ago
  >> Even the miners are unlikely to make money from mining only from holding their mining gains as investments. And that's why I've been calling it a Ponzi scheme lately. Once mining become unprofitable, or even impossible (asymptotically) people will stop mining, but the blockchain only works if people keep mining. At some point it's got to fail doesn't it?
  - tromp 9y ago
    > Once mining become unprofitable, or even impossible (asymptotically) people will stop mining It's self-correcting; fewer miners means higher profitability for remaining miners...
  - csuwldcat 9y ago
    False - mining in Bitcoin (which is really just transaction processing) is based on a math/crypto difficulty algo, and the system automatically adjusts itself every ~two weeks to fit the load/prevalence of miners and their block-finding success rates.
- 9y ago
shallot_router 9y ago
Most people can understand it from the perspective of an end user, just as you and I can swipe a credit card without necessarily understanding all the underlying Chip & PIN and anti-fraud and bank processing technologies and processes.
mdurbar 9y ago
I disagree with that statement. I have seen the excitement for Bitcoin come about here in Pakistan, mainly from the lower class, to the middle class, I know the founders of one of the Bitcoin exchanges in Pakistan(Urdubit), and the number of people that come from the rural areas to trade or buy bitcoins, would surprise you. Yes, most people won't read the whitepaper, and many more will read it and won't understand it, but you don't need to understand the inner workings of it fully to take advantage of it. Yes, right now, creating a paper wallet, or storing your coins in cold storage can be a little bit difficult for most people, and till these things are simplified enough, my mum won't be using it to pay for groceries at the supermarket. But that's with any technology!

wmf 9y ago

Reading the whitepaper isn't really enough since there are non-obvious emergent effects that it doesn't mention.

exogeny 9y ago

>Plenty of people understand Bitcoin. Go read the whitepaper. Plenty of people on HN. Maybe. And that's about it. Mainstream acceptance is far, far away, and having a condescending attitudes towards those who struggle with the concept is not going to help.

thephyber 9y ago
Plenty of people understand the basics of BitCoin, that it is a currency and how to transact with an exchange that supports it. You don't need to know the knitty-gritty of SHA256, blockchains, or the game theory associated with Proof of Work to "understand" BitCoin. If you apply the same standards for "knowledge" of the US Dollar, you also have to require that people understand the intricacies of the US Treasury, the Mint, The Federal Reserve (and it's 12 constituent regional Central Banks), concepts of fiat currency, etc.
slededit 9y ago
Most people don't understand central banking, yet they use the existing monetary system just fine. Mainstream acceptance doesn't require universal knowledge - merely trust.

fellellor 9y ago

I think the point being conveyed is that, the internet or www was easily accessible to people who could go on to modify things to suit their own end. Yes, you can use bitcoin as is, thanks to a number of available software choices. But it is difficult to do anything else with it. However, at this point I can only see it as a currency. So I can't say if the second point is even applicable here. Maybe the reference is to the underlying blockchain, the effort required to understand it, and consequently customize it like people did with the older web technologies.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

cs702 9y ago

> Author is projecting. Replaced "me" with "people" in writing this. Considered himself smart; tried to wrap head around Bitcoin, but lacks math/cs/finance background, and or curiosity to dig below surface level hype... Doesn't 'get it'. Yes, exactly my thoughts. It's IMPOSSIBLE to understand HOW and WHY Bitcoin works without a baseline understanding of public-key cryptography, cryptographic hashing functions, key ideas of computational complexity, and algorithmic processes in distributed systems, particularly peer-to-peer networks. In other words, to understand how and why Bitcoin works, one must first understand the key concepts underpinning Satoshi Nakamoto's groundbreaking paper: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf The general public, lacking the necessary education and knowledge to understand these things, has no choice but to use Bitcoin based on faith and experience. Note that the general public doesn't understand government-issued money either, but they happily use it every day based on faith and experience. The same thing is happening with Bitcoin.