4 ms·

You're right that a number of scientists have come out to say his post was science. I'm saying that they are not the conclusive authority on the posters' intent

You're right that a number of scientists have come out to say his post was science. I'm saying that they are not the conclusive authority on the posters' intent. He is of course entitled to feel and think whatever he wants, but maybe a little old-fashioned advice would help here: measure twice, cut once. He clearly didn't think through the effects of posting a stern essay to a company-wide board on a subject that is really quite touchy in the midst of one of the more socially-turbulent periods in the past 20 years. If he wants to prove it's that desperate, he probably should have worked harder on his essay or social skills, and found a better way to introduce discussion. And we haven't even confronted his perceptions yet. I have to wonder who exactly feels afraid and intimidated by the conditions. Him, and who else? Instead of resigning to anxiety that he might be confronted for such a strongly-pointed diatribe, maybe he should have considered that his understanding of the situation might be skewed? I can't speak for anybody else, but his facts didn't support his conclusions for me. His timing was even worse. If it's a discussion he wanted, then maybe he should have researched tact first.

lawnchair_larry 9y ago
There's the problem. You're too suspicious of his unstated intent, and dismissing his stated intent. That seems to put him in an impossible position.
peoplewindow 9y ago
If you insist on judging arguments by appeals to authority, which I agree is much faster than wading through all the research papers themselves, then there are no higher authorities on gender science than actual biologists who study the topic full time. Almost by definition, they are the most qualified. By all means be skeptical but you must have reasons. Otherwise you are no better than people who reject evolution because they really don't want to believe it's true. With respect to his essay skills and tact - they are just fine. He makes it abundantly clear he doesn't want to offend people and is not describing individuals, but only the statistical preferences of large populations. You are shooting the messenger in another desperate attempt to ignore the message. Could a few words have been tweaked here or there? Sure. Should he have written it? Yes - he alleges that Google is engaged in illegal behaviour. Google, like all large firms, teaches their employees that it's their responsibility to flag illegal and problematic behaviour and writing such a well researched memo in order to do so is more than most companies could expect.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > there are no higher authorities on gender science than actual biologists who study the topic full time Only one (Dr Soh) has supported him that I've seen thus far - she seems to have only got her PhD this year and she studies sexual paraphilia via fMRI (which doesn't have a great reputation.) Not exactly "full time gender science study". By way of contrast, there's PZ Myers - PhD in Biology in 1985, been teaching since 1993 - who thinks Damore is an idiot. https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/08/06/what-differentiates-a-good-engineer-from-a-clueless-ignoramus/ https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/08/06/what-diff...
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    There were four others too. They published their views on a website (Quillette) that was immediately DDoSd off the internet - presumably by the sort of extremists who now control Google and who did not want anyone to see the evidence that Damore might have a point. Damore is not an idiot. The people who are attacking him in these ways are though: it's pure anti-intellectualism. And by the way, counting experts is not a valid way to decide things, it's just a heuristic. Damore has 5 who point out that he isn't making the science up, but what actually matters is that there are hundreds of studies and papers that support his basic position. Dr Soh points that out. It's not just her opinion vs other people's opinions. It's the opinion of thousands of scientists who have published research that shows all sorts of preference differences between gender.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      Dr Soh was one of the Quillette authors. > Damore has 5 who point out that he isn't making the science up Only 4 - one of them is duplicated.
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  Then it seems we disagree on what the core issue is. I don't think it is a matter of gender science. I think he's using research in gender science to push an ideology that he's attempting to form grounds in his attached research. I see it as a social issue primarily, with considerations that should include gender science, but not be based solely upon it. For reference to my thinking on the matter I'll confer to one of my favourite scientists (as he is to many), Mr Feynman: >> "Scientific knowledge is an enabling power to do either good or bad — but it does not carry instructions on how to use it. Such power has evident value — even though the power may be negated by what one does with it."

lawnchair_larry 9y ago

There's the problem. You're too suspicious of his unstated intent, and dismissing his stated intent. That seems to put him in an impossible position.

peoplewindow 9y ago

If you insist on judging arguments by appeals to authority, which I agree is much faster than wading through all the research papers themselves, then there are no higher authorities on gender science than actual biologists who study the topic full time. Almost by definition, they are the most qualified. By all means be skeptical but you must have reasons. Otherwise you are no better than people who reject evolution because they really don't want to believe it's true. With respect to his essay skills and tact - they are just fine. He makes it abundantly clear he doesn't want to offend people and is not describing individuals, but only the statistical preferences of large populations. You are shooting the messenger in another desperate attempt to ignore the message. Could a few words have been tweaked here or there? Sure. Should he have written it? Yes - he alleges that Google is engaged in illegal behaviour. Google, like all large firms, teaches their employees that it's their responsibility to flag illegal and problematic behaviour and writing such a well researched memo in order to do so is more than most companies could expect.

zimpenfish 9y ago
> there are no higher authorities on gender science than actual biologists who study the topic full time Only one (Dr Soh) has supported him that I've seen thus far - she seems to have only got her PhD this year and she studies sexual paraphilia via fMRI (which doesn't have a great reputation.) Not exactly "full time gender science study". By way of contrast, there's PZ Myers - PhD in Biology in 1985, been teaching since 1993 - who thinks Damore is an idiot. https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/08/06/what-differentiates-a-good-engineer-from-a-clueless-ignoramus/ https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/08/06/what-diff...
- peoplewindow 9y ago
  There were four others too. They published their views on a website (Quillette) that was immediately DDoSd off the internet - presumably by the sort of extremists who now control Google and who did not want anyone to see the evidence that Damore might have a point. Damore is not an idiot. The people who are attacking him in these ways are though: it's pure anti-intellectualism. And by the way, counting experts is not a valid way to decide things, it's just a heuristic. Damore has 5 who point out that he isn't making the science up, but what actually matters is that there are hundreds of studies and papers that support his basic position. Dr Soh points that out. It's not just her opinion vs other people's opinions. It's the opinion of thousands of scientists who have published research that shows all sorts of preference differences between gender.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    Dr Soh was one of the Quillette authors. > Damore has 5 who point out that he isn't making the science up Only 4 - one of them is duplicated.
52-6F-62 9y ago
Then it seems we disagree on what the core issue is. I don't think it is a matter of gender science. I think he's using research in gender science to push an ideology that he's attempting to form grounds in his attached research. I see it as a social issue primarily, with considerations that should include gender science, but not be based solely upon it. For reference to my thinking on the matter I'll confer to one of my favourite scientists (as he is to many), Mr Feynman: >> "Scientific knowledge is an enabling power to do either good or bad — but it does not carry instructions on how to use it. Such power has evident value — even though the power may be negated by what one does with it."