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Well, did you read it? He lists the following: "* Programs, mentoring, and classes only for people with a certain gender or race [5] * A high priority queue a

Well, did you read it? He lists the following: "* Programs, mentoring, and classes only for people with a certain gender or race [5] * A high priority queue and special treatment for “diversity” candidates * Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate * Reconsidering any set of people if it’s not “diverse” enough, but not showing that same scrutiny in the reverse direction (clear confirmation bias) * Setting org level OKRs for increased representation which can incentivize illegal discrimination [6] These practices are based on false assumptions generated by our biases and can actually increase race and gender tensions. We’re told by senior leadership that what we’re doing is both the morally and economically correct thing to do, but without evidence this is just veiled left ideology [7] that can irreparably harm Google." There are some hyperlinks that are presumably citations but they go to internal links so we don't know what they say. So that's why he thinks that.

MattLeBlanc001 9y ago
I was just thinking, since I'm one of those "diversity" candidates that never made it to an interview. does it mean that I'm a worse candidate, because even though my profile is favoured as you highlighted I've never made it to an interview.
- imminentviolet 9y ago
  If those are the only variables, logic would say yes.
- jdcarter 9y ago
  Google is famous for nixing qualified candidates for all kinds of nonsensical reasons. I would never read anything into failing to get an interview or offer letter there.
danso 9y ago
Yes I did read it. You can check my comment history where I've even linked to that exact section you cite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14953398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14953398 I asked for empirical evidence that these initiatives had led to bad results at Google. If the biological research so directly contradicts Google's aims with these diversity initiatives, then we should be able to measure the negative impact, no? That Google has had these initiatives for years and still has ratios nowhere near the 50% that the author fears is a harmful goal, belies the notion that Google is conducting its recruitment in a reckless, diversity-at-all-costs way. Of course having read the memo, I know that the author does not cite any such empirical evidence, besides begging-the-question anecdata such as "I've gotten many personal messages from fellow Googlers expressing their gratitude for bringing up these very important issues". While I believe the author to be smart and am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt about being sincere, I question how he can fill 10 pages with observations and boilerplate (including a trite table of what he thinks "left" and "right" biases are) and not be able to mention actual observed consequences of Google's hiring practices having gone awry. It suggests to me that he hasn't really been openminded or willing to investigate both sides of the issue.
- imminentviolet 9y ago
  What's the problem with scrutiny? If these policies are based on premises that aren't true, wouldn't it be better to discard them in favor of policies that are based on premises that are true? How would we do that without a discussion?
  - danso 9y ago
    Sorry, why do we assume that those premises are true? And which premises in particular, because much of that memo consists of begging the question and/or the author's personal opinion. For example, in the TL:DR: "Google’s political bias has equated the freedom from offense with psychological safety, but shaming into silence is the antithesis of psychological safety." Uh, OK. Obviously "shaming into silence" is not in any part of Google's stated mission. But I guess that's because it's an unconscious bias, and if only Google were truly woke, they'd realize that, right? Or how about: > We have extensive government and Google programs, fields of study, and legal and social norms to protect women, but when a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men, he’s labelled as a misogynist and whiner So the memo's author is apparently a prophet of truth but can't even use Google (or Bing, if you will) to look up the times that men have sued on allegations of discrimination? If there weren't law that protected men, those lawsuits would not be brought to court by a competent lawyer, nevermind won (as in the case of Hooter's): - http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Yahoo-lawsuit-Marissa-Mayer-discrimination-men-9926263.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Yahoo-lawsuit-Marissa-May... - https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/4-3-14.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/4-3-14.cfm - http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/01/us/hooters-settles-suit-by-men-denied-jobs.html http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/01/us/hooters-settles-suit-by... - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/26/ruby-tuesday-accused-of-employment-discrimination-against-men/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/2... - http://thegrapevine.theroot.com/white-men-sue-diddys-revolt-tv-for-reverse-discriminati-1793516104 http://thegrapevine.theroot.com/white-men-sue-diddys-revolt-... - http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/08/02/court_rules_anti_male_bias_a_valid_title_ix_claim_for_former_columbia_student.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/08/02/court_rules_... So given the memo's author inability to look up simple case law, you'll have to excuse my hesitance in not accepting that all of his premises are either true or relevant to Google's diversity efforts. Which is why I ask for any empirical evidence that would support his allegations that Google's hiring processes chase diversity in a way that is harmful to the company's performance or even in a way that is unreasonable. Given that Google's stock seems to be still doing quite well, that it still seems to be hiring people of the author's political mindset (including, obviously, the author himself), and that Google's demographic numbers are not anywhere near reaching parity with overall demographics, I'd say the burden of evidence is on the memo's author.
Hnrobert42 9y ago
If you believe women and/or minorities are biologically predisposed to underperform white males in tech, then it makes sense to offer them more help. That offer only increases "tension" if you don't believe the biological premise. So which is it? You can't have it both ways.
- platform13 9y ago
  uh, it's not either... if you believe women are socio-politically disadvantaged in the tech world, then it makes sense to offer them help

MattLeBlanc001 9y ago

I was just thinking, since I'm one of those "diversity" candidates that never made it to an interview. does it mean that I'm a worse candidate, because even though my profile is favoured as you highlighted I've never made it to an interview.

imminentviolet 9y ago
If those are the only variables, logic would say yes.
jdcarter 9y ago
Google is famous for nixing qualified candidates for all kinds of nonsensical reasons. I would never read anything into failing to get an interview or offer letter there.

danso 9y ago

Yes I did read it. You can check my comment history where I've even linked to that exact section you cite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14953398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14953398 I asked for empirical evidence that these initiatives had led to bad results at Google. If the biological research so directly contradicts Google's aims with these diversity initiatives, then we should be able to measure the negative impact, no? That Google has had these initiatives for years and still has ratios nowhere near the 50% that the author fears is a harmful goal, belies the notion that Google is conducting its recruitment in a reckless, diversity-at-all-costs way. Of course having read the memo, I know that the author does not cite any such empirical evidence, besides begging-the-question anecdata such as "I've gotten many personal messages from fellow Googlers expressing their gratitude for bringing up these very important issues". While I believe the author to be smart and am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt about being sincere, I question how he can fill 10 pages with observations and boilerplate (including a trite table of what he thinks "left" and "right" biases are) and not be able to mention actual observed consequences of Google's hiring practices having gone awry. It suggests to me that he hasn't really been openminded or willing to investigate both sides of the issue.

imminentviolet 9y ago
What's the problem with scrutiny? If these policies are based on premises that aren't true, wouldn't it be better to discard them in favor of policies that are based on premises that are true? How would we do that without a discussion?
- danso 9y ago
  Sorry, why do we assume that those premises are true? And which premises in particular, because much of that memo consists of begging the question and/or the author's personal opinion. For example, in the TL:DR: "Google’s political bias has equated the freedom from offense with psychological safety, but shaming into silence is the antithesis of psychological safety." Uh, OK. Obviously "shaming into silence" is not in any part of Google's stated mission. But I guess that's because it's an unconscious bias, and if only Google were truly woke, they'd realize that, right? Or how about: > We have extensive government and Google programs, fields of study, and legal and social norms to protect women, but when a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men, he’s labelled as a misogynist and whiner So the memo's author is apparently a prophet of truth but can't even use Google (or Bing, if you will) to look up the times that men have sued on allegations of discrimination? If there weren't law that protected men, those lawsuits would not be brought to court by a competent lawyer, nevermind won (as in the case of Hooter's): - http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Yahoo-lawsuit-Marissa-Mayer-discrimination-men-9926263.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Yahoo-lawsuit-Marissa-May... - https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/4-3-14.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/4-3-14.cfm - http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/01/us/hooters-settles-suit-by-men-denied-jobs.html http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/01/us/hooters-settles-suit-by... - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/26/ruby-tuesday-accused-of-employment-discrimination-against-men/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/2... - http://thegrapevine.theroot.com/white-men-sue-diddys-revolt-tv-for-reverse-discriminati-1793516104 http://thegrapevine.theroot.com/white-men-sue-diddys-revolt-... - http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/08/02/court_rules_anti_male_bias_a_valid_title_ix_claim_for_former_columbia_student.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/08/02/court_rules_... So given the memo's author inability to look up simple case law, you'll have to excuse my hesitance in not accepting that all of his premises are either true or relevant to Google's diversity efforts. Which is why I ask for any empirical evidence that would support his allegations that Google's hiring processes chase diversity in a way that is harmful to the company's performance or even in a way that is unreasonable. Given that Google's stock seems to be still doing quite well, that it still seems to be hiring people of the author's political mindset (including, obviously, the author himself), and that Google's demographic numbers are not anywhere near reaching parity with overall demographics, I'd say the burden of evidence is on the memo's author.

Hnrobert42 9y ago

If you believe women and/or minorities are biologically predisposed to underperform white males in tech, then it makes sense to offer them more help. That offer only increases "tension" if you don't believe the biological premise. So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

platform13 9y ago
uh, it's not either... if you believe women are socio-politically disadvantaged in the tech world, then it makes sense to offer them help